New CA eco problem.....

Due to the unfortunate and tragic fires here in part because treehuggers are not allowing the trees and underbruch to be cleared from around power towers has now caused the power company to cut power in fire prone areas. This due to the fact they are getting sued for the fires. Now this presents a problem for all those trying to be eco friendly by getting electric cars. Many are now stranded as they cannot charge the cars and are having to go back to fossil fuel vehicles during these times. :banghead::banghead: Even Musk (Tesla) has sent out warning for all to keep their batteries charged at all time when out of range of a charge station....:banghead: BRP might have to hold up on electric model here in CA.....:mad:

After 33 years in wildland fire suppression in California, I can say it is an unnecessary, and ongoing tragedy. During all the years that I was in (1970-2003), our department, along with our federal counterparts, the US Forest Service and others, labored fruitlessly trying to get our state officials to allow us to implement a reasonable, and comparatively much less expensive program to systematically clear or burn these fuels in a controlled format.

We were able to do a very limited amount of burning. And a few of our less effective measures were passed. Like a minimum clearance around structures called 'Defensible Space'. But actually, this step is more effective in keeping a fire from escaping a residence than it is in stopping 300 foot flame fronts in 70 mph winds.

I am not saying our proposals, if implemented, would eliminate all destructive wildland fires. But it would certainly reduce the number and severity significantly.

In the Pre-Moden era the natives would set fires in the mountains and hills in the fall as they moved down towards the coast for the winter. This would burn off the old/dead brush converting it to grassland in the spring. There is very little wildlife in mature/old brush covered areas. But wildlife thrives where there is new growth of grass. Then the islands of brush would afford cover, protection and nesting areas while the grassland provided food and hunting opportunities for man and beast. A much smarter management plan than what is employed today.

There is no simple solution and there is a lot more to the equation than I am able to deal with here. Acknowledging that wild fires will always be a risk in California. But also recognizing that with a little intelligence, understanding of reality and an effort to responsibly manage the situation, allowing facts to rule over emotion (good luck with that in today's world). Things could be much better.

Ron wasn't it 2yrs.ago you folks ( and N.C. ) have some hugh fires in the Rt 25, Rt 40, RT 321 area ???? ….. I'll bet that had " brush not cleared " issues ……. Mike :ohyea:

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Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911

Ron wasn't it 2yrs.ago you folks ( and N.C. ) have some hugh fires in the Rt 25, Rt 40, RT 321 area ???? ….. I'll bet that had " brush not cleared " issues ……. Mike :ohyea:

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Very true. Gatlinburg, NC. A big tourist/resort town in the mountains above Pigeon Forge (Dolly Pardon's town) burnt. It was very bad. Lots of homes lost and some lives as well. They aren't used to this kind of thing out here. People stayed too long. Most just don't realize that by the time you're sure you should go, it's too late to go. You need to stay in your home. It's your best shot at survival, at that point. It takes awhile for a wildland fire to render a home 'Un-survivable'. At that point, the flame front should be gone and you will be able to exit the structure and survive outside (though it will be hot). It is a lot better than getting trapped in your car trying to go down a narrow road in smoke so thick you either run off the road because you can't see or you stop. Neither option is going to work out for you.

But there are few who will have the courage to stay in their dwelling. It's not easy to do. People have no idea how incredibly loud a large wildland fire is. Or how fear-inspiring it can be. People panic. And panic injures and kills more people than just about any other single cause.

Gatlinburg is timberland mixed with brush in steep country. A lot of standing and downed dead (much like the devastating 1988 Yellowstone Park fire). What a joke that was. Don't get me started.

These devastating fires happen in areas that have had years to address the hazard. These conditions don't spring up over night. Just goes to show that we have not learned much over the years. Same road blocks and obstacles exist today as created the problems in the past. They may be worse now than before. I am not sure how much destruction and loss of life it will take to get serious about this. People in power blaming everything but the real source of the problem. A simple lack of reasonable management.

Frankly, I would compare it to political leadership telling the military how to do their job and managing their very dangerous operations from a politically correct mindset instead of giving the trained men and women an objective and letting them achieve it without being shackled hand and foot.

Just my 2 cents. Not a problem if no one agrees with me. Won't hurt my feelings.

+1 We get fires around here often too. One yr the powers that be wouldn't let the dozers in to cut fire lines. I was mad as hell ( with ash falling on my home no less) At least "they" are now attempting to clear out brush and dead trees doing some forest management in our area.( I'm in a forest ) Unfortunately some of their " controlled burns" have become un-controlled forest fires ( the 3rd time we evacuated).

Lew L

Definitely fire suppression prevention is part of the problem, there is no doubt also that PGE has not dealt well with maintaining it's infrastructure over the years.

It's just this simple; what would happen if the eco minded folks passed legislation forbidding you from mow your lawn. Yes it is just that ludicrous, but that's what's happened on the left coast and thousands of citizens are paying dearly for that stupidity.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoast

Definitely fire suppression prevention is part of the problem, there is no doubt also that PGE has not dealt well with maintaining it's infrastructure over the years.

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Right on! PG&E has been profit minding their stockholders for so long they've neglected the responsibility of the safety of their consumers. My crystal ball tells me that in the not too distant future, PG&E will become broken up into several smaller power companies. As a result these smaller entities will be easier to control and regulate, however, it will also increase the cost of producing and maintaining the power supply. In ten or twenty years, Californians may be paying as much for electricity as they pay for rent.

It is truly unfortunate that there are so many overzealous ecology folks out there
who don't think ahead of what their rules and regulations will cause later on in the
future, just ask the people who live in Lake Tahoe about TARPA, they would not allow
the property owners to rake up fallen pine needles or cut dead trees, they wanted to leave it
all natural..... guess what damn near happened to Lake Tahoe.... it almost burned down like
Paradise CA. conservation is one thing but shortsightedness is quite another... Time to plan ahead
and have real fire prevention experts take care of the wooded lands so this does not happen again.

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Originally Posted by Chupaca

Due to the unfortunate and tragic fires here in part because treehuggers are not allowing the trees and underbruch to be cleared from around power towers has now caused the power company to cut power in fire prone areas. This due to the fact they are getting sued for the fires. Now this presents a problem for all those trying to be eco friendly by getting electric cars. Many are now stranded as they cannot charge the cars and are having to go back to fossil fuel vehicles during these times. :banghead::banghead: Even Musk (Tesla) has sent out warning for all to keep their batteries charged at all time when out of range of a charge station....:banghead: BRP might have to hold up on electric model here in CA.....:mad:

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Originally Posted by 2dogs

It's just this simple; what would happen if the eco minded folks passed legislation forbidding you from mow your lawn. Yes it is just that ludicrous, but that's what's happened on the left coast and thousands of citizens are paying dearly for that stupidity.

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Have you ever heard of T-A-R-P-A ????

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Originally Posted by Motorcycledave

It is truly unfortunate that there are so many overzealous ecology folks out there
who don't think ahead of what their rules and regulations will cause later on in the
future, just ask the people who live in Lake Tahoe about TARPA, they would not allow
the property owners to rake up fallen pine needles or cut dead trees, they wanted to leave it
all natural..... guess what damn near happened to Lake Tahoe.... it almost burned down like
Paradise CA. conservation is one thing but shortsightedness is quite another... Time to plan ahead
and have real fire prevention experts take care of the wooded lands so this does not happen again.

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I have a friend with a cabin in Camp Richardson and the forestry service is insanely strict about what they can do, where they can park a car, etc all so Lake Tahoe doesn’t lose its clarity. Then on the flip side I know other folks with places in Arnold and Twain Harte and they have mandatory clear zones of like 50 yards from thier dwelling of any debris on the ground. Throw in the pine beetle problem. No shortage of fuel everywhere.

It's really not that simple.

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Originally Posted by UtahPete

It's really not that simple.

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And why not? Dare I ask........LOL.

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Originally Posted by Lew L

+1 We get fires around here often too. One yr the powers that be wouldn't let the dozers in to cut fire lines. I was mad as hell ( with ash falling on my home no less) At least "they" are now attempting to clear out brush and dead trees doing some forest management in our area.( I'm in a forest ) Unfortunately some of their " controlled burns" have become un-controlled forest fires ( the 3rd time we evacuated).

Lew L

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There are many places were government has banned the use of any mechanized equipment. Including fire suppression equipment. This really hampers what crews are able to accomplish. It would be like restricting a large military operation to hand guns only. No tanks, no artillery, no fully automatic rifles.

And yes, 'Controlled' fires always run the risk of getting away. But controlled fires are set in conditions which are not nearly as difficult as these random fires which start in the worst possible conditions.

We had fires in the desert east of San Diego (yes, the desert will burn given the right conditions). Sometimes mechanized equipment, like a dozer, would stray onto 'Mechanized Equipment Restricted' land. Of course the fire has no such restrictions. It goes where ever it wants. But you have to realize that fire is 'Natural' and mechanized equipment is not. Neither are hand tools. But you don't want to stray too far into the realm of logic in these discussions.

When this happened, sand was disturbed and rocks were overturned. Sometimes we would spend weeks smoothing out the sand with hand tools, obliterating any signs of mechanization in the sand. Sand that would, eventually, smooth itself out with the wind. In addition to that, we had to correctly re-orient any rock the size of a pumpkin or larger so the sun-burned side was up. Also, the rock had to be buried into the sand up to the original sun-tan line. We are talking thousands of dollars of tax payer money wasted. And a very poor use of fire suppression resources. Of course, no mechanized equipment could be used in the effort. We had to park outside of the restricted zone and hike into the work area.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoast

Definitely fire suppression prevention is part of the problem, there is no doubt also that PGE has not dealt well with maintaining it's infrastructure over the years.

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I am not necessarily a fan of PG&E. They do have their issues. But there are areas where they are not allowed to clear vegetation because of government regulations. Since PG&E has requested permission to clear more brush from their installations, and been repeatedly denied over the years. I think they would do more if they were allowed.

From Baja Ron: "There are many places were government has banned the use of any mechanized equipment. Including fire suppression equipment. This really hampers what crews are able to accomplish. It would be like restricting a large military operation to hand guns only. No tanks, no artillery, no fully automatic rifles."

Back in 2000 or so, Northern MN Canoe Country....bad forest fires threatened multi thousands of acres. The area could only be reached by canoes and portaging. No motors permitted (paddle only), no motorized chain saws...try clearing a fire line with axes, shovels and saws. They did their best...but much was destroyed.

Went and saw the devastation before we left the state. Hope it has grown back in the last 20 years or so.

A number of years ago (quite a number) a search and rescue operation took place to recover a severely injured victim in a remote backcountry location where newly passed legislation banned the use of mechanized equipment. A helicopter extraction was started however do to a small tree (approx. 12'/15' tall) made a safe touchdown not possible. A command decision was made to remove the tree to save time and fuel as darkness was approaching. Two agency employees of the district in which operation took place were on the rescue team, and refused to allow the tree to be cut. Immediately a very heated discussion ensued between the two district employees and the individual in command of the rescue operation. Physical resistance was obviously about to take place and was quickly overcome by the two obstinate individuals being handcuffed around another adjacent tree. The obstructing tree in question was removed, the chopper landed and the victim was air lifted out and on the way to proper medical treatment. For several months thereafter, copious amounts of communication both written and verbal took place between a number of agencies involved in the incident. Due to the possibility of suffering immense negative public opinion over the stupidity of one agencies' employees, the matter died of natural causes.