To Steve (BRPcare) about DESS issues

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'm chiming in; it would be very helpful to be able to turn this feature off.

Many of us take long rides, and could be the difference between an hour or two stop at a dealer to flash the software (with the option to turn it off as a preference), and loosing a vacation.

From everything I've read here and personal experience " FLASHING the SOFTWARE " will not solve the current issue with the DESS failures most are experiencing NOW........The MODULE must be re-placed........For everybody ( but me ) it's about 2 hrs...because the FRUNK has to be re-moved and put back on......the MODULE is two bolts and two plugs ......I'd LOVE to know if the MODULE can safely be moved to somewhere more accessible ( for the dealer or DIY'er ) ....like possibly the REAR TRUNK AREA which is further away from the IGNITION SWITCH and KEY........................HOW ABOUT IT STEVE ??????......This might even prevent the problem.....................just trying to help with this conundrum ............Mike

[PMK]

From everything I've read here and personal experience " FLASHING the SOFTWARE " will not solve the current issue with the DESS failures most are experiencing NOW........The MODULE must be re-placed........For everybody ( but me ) it's about 2 hrs...because the FRUNK has to be re-moved and put back on......the MODULE is two bolts and two plugs ......I'd LOVE to know if the MODULE can safely be moved to somewhere more accessible ( for the dealer or DIY'er ) ....like possibly the REAR TRUNK AREA which is further away from the IGNITION SWITCH and KEY........................HOW ABOUT IT STEVE ??????......This might even prevent the problem.....................just trying to help with this conundrum ............Mike

Longer wires, cell phones in the trunk, may not make that location a good spot.

Nest time the frunk is removed, I will see if I can make it a QC type mount / location.

[jcthorne]

You own the machine, not Can Am, find someone that has the BUDS setup, outside of a Can Am dealer and have them switch it off for you. Do not say a word and if it is stolen, no one needs to know.

Do you know anyone that has actually done this and it works as we think it does? Really as simple as just turning it off?

[PMK]

Do you know anyone that has actually done this and it works as we think it does? Really as simple as just turning it off?

Yes and no...No I do not no anyone, if you have the proper version of equipment and software rev, plus a proper key, it is supposedly as simple as you mention. Just got off the phone with another member here about it, and they clarified some stuff they learned as we have shared some knowledge.

[PMK]

I'm thinking the 916 DESS module will be a good one. No real reason other than my old race number.

[pitzerwm]

Ok, I have done a little research. To deactivate the DESS you/someone will need a MegaTech Key for their BUDS system. When you deactivate it, it erases the key codes where ever they are stored. If you want to re-activate the DESS, the keys will need to be reprogrammed into the bike. With software version 3.7.2 this can be done with your keys, no master key needed. (This is what is suppose to happen but hasn't been tested)

I'm still trying to find out about a pin# to over ride a DESS failure.

More research, there is no pin# option at this time. I do have the Megatech license and I can disable the DESS.

I see that Steve finally responded, In light of the fact that it started happening on the 14s, and again with the 15s, not sure about the 16s, IMO its not very high on BRP's fix it list. IMO the right 10 year old kid could solve this issue in days. We are not talking about a million lines of code.

Of course, they are short sited on the value of customer satisfaction vs R&D to fix this and other issues. The MBAs only job is to cut cost and to determine the cost of fixing vs the cost of lawsuits.

[Sam Mac]

If you go to this thread and read post #360 and a few after that it appears that the new 710004916 DESS module is not correcting the issue.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...highlight=dess

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Hi everyone,

We've been following this thread closely and I wanted to make sure I got the right information before posting here.

Steve, has BRP been able to determine anything definitive about what kinds of external radio interference may cause the key code to be read incorrectly? If so, has the newest module been made more resistant to, or more tolerant of, such external signals?

[BRPcare]

If so, has the newest module been made more resistant to, or more tolerant of, such external signals?

Without delving into too much detail, I know that the main change in the new version of the module is to allow more time for the system to ensure that the proper key is detected, regardless of external signals.

it appears that the new 710004916 DESS module is not correcting the issue.

If you're having a DESS error come up with the new module, it's possible that the error in your case is not due to the module itself, but elsewhere (ECM, Antenna, Key, etc). Your dealer is properly equipped to check that out for you if you do get that error message.

[WEB-WVR]

Every time I get in the car or pickup to drive to coffee or church 30 miles away I run the risk of some idiot crossing the center line and crashing into me! Do I let that stop me? No! This is to say no trip, regardless of what vehicle you use, is guaranteed to not end up with you stranded somewhere. If we let the possibility of a failure keep us home, we'll never enjoy getting out.

Just sayin'. Some of you guys, like Sam Mac, just simply worry too much. If you let the fear of failure hold you back you'll miss out on 99% of life's pleasures.

Hell, your wife could die of a heart attack the next time you go fishing! Are you going to let the fear of coming home to find her dead stop you? I doubt it.

Get real, guys!

While I agree with you completely.... the concerns here are a little different. There is the worry of operating a untrustworthy vehicle. It would be like going on a vacation with very bald tires...or going on a cross country trip with a 27 year old car with mechanical issues.... you never know when the vehicle will strand you. I think that is the concern....unreliability.

I have a 2014 ST-L and have had no DESS issue. I hope I don't and will ride in the mean time with confidence in my . But.....if the DESS pops up....I would be very reluctant to go on a distance ride and get screwed. Could you imagine being hundreds or a thousand miles from home, stranded...huge tow bill and associated costs to get back home ?

Still thinking positive here Felling sorry for those with issues

[billybovine]

Without delving into too much detail, I know that the main change in the new version of the module is to allow more time for the system to ensure that the proper key is detected, regardless of external signals.

I wondered about that. 2013 and earlier models kept trying for a full minute before giving up looking for the key to respond correctly. Yet 2014 and later seemed to give up only after a couple seconds.

[Sam Mac]

Steve

I get it that BRP is in business to make money. I'm not about to tell you guys how to run your business but as a former business owner the best way to lose customers is to not deliver what you have promised and to cause them problems. I understand that the DESS system is designed to defer theft. Just my 2 cents, having my Spyder stolen is not at the top of my concerns. I am more concerned that it won't start while I am far away from home. I get it that you guys are probably trying to come up with a solution to this problem. It would seem to me that in the interim period until a solution is found that it may be prudent to allow your dealers to disable the DESS system if an owner requests that it be done. I for one would be willing to sign a release of liability for the disabling of the DESS system. That said I am looking at side by side off road vehicles for use on my property and Can Am will not be considered. $$$$$$ that Can Am will not get from me.


Thank You

Sam Mac

[jcthorne]

Yes and no...No I do not no anyone, if you have the proper version of equipment and software rev, plus a proper key, it is supposedly as simple as you mention. Just got off the phone with another member here about it, and they clarified some stuff they learned as we have shared some knowledge.

What version and what key?

[rcturner]

Hi everyone,

We've been following this thread closely and I wanted to make sure I got the right information before posting here.
Here are the facts:

• The system works as follows: When the vehicle is started, the DESS module looks for a signal from the key, relayed to it via the antenna (which is just an extension of the module itself). Then, the DESS module lets the ECM know that the proper, authenticated key is present and matches the ECM, and the vehicle can be operated.
• There are different possible causes for a DESS error, and different ways for the error to manifest itself. For the vast majority of cases we've seen, neither the ignition, antenna or ECM needed to be replaced. For folks who did experience a DESS issue, replacing the DESS module itself to the latest part number is the appropriate fix.
• If, somehow, you've had a DESS failure after having the DESS module replaced to the newest part number (that occurred more than once, was not due to interference, etc), it could point to an error in one of the other aforementioned systems. Your dealer can diagnose it for you, look up any error codes and if needed our techs will assist them.
• For obvious reasons, BRP doesn't recommend nor support disabling of the DESS system.

Incorrect. If I don't respond right away, it's to make sure I have all the facts straight so that I don't provide any misinformation.

I originally started this thread with a fairly simple question addressed to you. 99% of what is posted here has nothing to do with what I wanted to know about clearing the error. I apologize for the other stuff that has accumulated. My question has to do with the comment about cycling the ignition 4 or 5 times when the error is active on the screen. Does this clear the system and allow it to reinitialize ?

Thanks for your time.

[Deanna777]

Hi everyone,

We've been following this thread closely and I wanted to make sure I got the right information before posting here.
Here are the facts:

• The system works as follows: When the vehicle is started, the DESS module looks for a signal from the key, relayed to it via the antenna (which is just an extension of the module itself). Then, the DESS module lets the ECM know that the proper, authenticated key is present and matches the ECM, and the vehicle can be operated.
• There are different possible causes for a DESS error, and different ways for the error to manifest itself. For the vast majority of cases we've seen, neither the ignition, antenna or ECM needed to be replaced. For folks who did experience a DESS issue, replacing the DESS module itself to the latest part number is the appropriate fix.
• If, somehow, you've had a DESS failure after having the DESS module replaced to the newest part number (that occurred more than once, was not due to interference, etc), it could point to an error in one of the other aforementioned systems. Your dealer can diagnose it for you, look up any error codes and if needed our techs will assist them.
• For obvious reasons, BRP doesn't recommend nor support disabling of the DESS system.

Incorrect. If I don't respond right away, it's to make sure I have all the facts straight so that I don't provide any misinformation.

BRPCare: Thanks for the info. Deanna

[Jheck]

I also am in favor of shutting the D.E.S.S. Off on my Spyder. I am more worried about being stranded some where, than I am about the bike being stolen. I will sign any waiver to make this happen. Or you Steve can send me a BRP credit card to cover the amount for the tow that B.E.S.T. Warranty does not.

[waytootall67]

I also am in favor of shutting the D.E.S.S. Off on my Spyder. I am more worried about being stranded some where, than I am about the bike being stolen. I will sign any waiver to make this happen. Or you Steve can send me a BRP credit card to cover the amount for the tow that B.E.S.T. Warranty does not.

Yes it was $330.00 extra for our tow...115km was $530!

[Tango]

Steve. BRP need to disable the DESS feature. Plain an simple. This needs to be done until BRP finds a positive solution to the problem. Help us out. We want to be confident in our rides. To take them anywhere we want. With out worrying about getting the dreaded DESS failure. Give us the choice to make that decision! Tom

[MikeT]

Hi everyone,

We've been following this thread closely and I wanted to make sure I got the right information before posting here.
Here are the facts:

• The system works as follows: When the vehicle is started, the DESS module looks for a signal from the key, relayed to it via the antenna (which is just an extension of the module itself). Then, the DESS module lets the ECM know that the proper, authenticated key is present and matches the ECM, and the vehicle can be operated.
• There are different possible causes for a DESS error, and different ways for the error to manifest itself. For the vast majority of cases we've seen, neither the ignition, antenna or ECM needed to be replaced. For folks who did experience a DESS issue, replacing the DESS module itself to the latest part number is the appropriate fix.
• If, somehow, you've had a DESS failure after having the DESS module replaced to the newest part number (that occurred more than once, was not due to interference, etc), it could point to an error in one of the other aforementioned systems. Your dealer can diagnose it for you, look up any error codes and if needed our techs will assist them.
• For obvious reasons, BRP doesn't recommend nor support disabling of the DESS system.

Incorrect. If I don't respond right away, it's to make sure I have all the facts straight so that I don't provide any misinformation.

I emailed BRP Customer Support 2 weeks ago with my year, make, model, VIN and mileage. I inquired about the DESS issue, and asked if my RT Limited might have been assembled with faulty components. I also asked what the probability is that we might be a victim of this issue. The answer I received contained:
1. No admission of a problem. Without that
2. There was no type of solution given, and
3. No indication of what the probability is that our Spyder could be affected.
Why is BRP so reluctant to be transparent?????
Confused
Mike
Their bottom line was " IF there's any recalls, the customers and the dealers will be informed."

[PaladinLV]

It does IF you also replace the ignition switch!!!!

The sad part is BRP KNOWS THIS but for some reason is jerking off the DEALERS
OR
The dealers are not insisting both be replaced.

AJ

If you go to this thread and read post #360 and a few after that it appears that the new 710004916 DESS module is not correcting the issue.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...highlight=dess

[PaladinLV]

N O!
I is not a definitive fix.
It may work, it may not work, if it works once it may not work twice, if it works twice it still may fail the third time.

AJ

I originally started this thread with a fairly simple question addressed to you. 99% of what is posted here has nothing to do with what I wanted to know about clearing the error. I apologize for the other stuff that has accumulated. My question has to do with the comment about cycling the ignition 4 or 5 times when the error is active on the screen. Does this clear the system and allow it to reinitialize ?

Thanks for your time.

[PaladinLV]

Unfortunately, the statements FAIL the Smell Test in the face of REALITY.

Facts:
The vast MAJORITY of those on THIS site that own a 2015 RT and have had ONLY the DESS module fail have CONTINUED to experience DESS FAILURES.
The VAST MAJORITY of those on this site that own a 2014 RT and have had BOTH the DESS Module AND the IGNITION replaced no longer experienced the problem.
The VAST MAJORITY of those on THIS site that own a 2014 RT that had only the DESS module replaced but did not work and THEN had either BOTH the DESS Module and the Ignition replaced or the ignition additionally replaced also no longer experienced the problem.

SO - IF it is indeed the DESS module and the Ignition has no effect then BRP is negligent in accepting slip-shod modules from their sub-contractor and negligent in their QC practices and on-site inspections of their sub-contractors.

Fact:
If outside electromagnetic interference is a possible problem then once again, BRP is at fault for faulty design/engineering.

Instead of going thru this RIDICULOUS process, one would think that SMART MONEY and BRP MANAGEMENT would give the OWNER the OPTION of disabling the DESS!
That's what an UNDERSTANDING company, a company that VALUES their customers would do.

For obvious REASONS?

Sorry NOT OBVIOUS to me! My trike, my business, my chances. If someone is going to steal it, BRPs electronic design is NOT going to deter them.

You want to get in the "law enforcement" business. You think motorcycle cop is going to up with this even once?
OH that's right their bikes have INSTANT ON! Wonder how many of those trikes will be stolen?

So since it is DOABLE, WHY don't we have that option?

Of course maybe all those people that came on this site to talk about their DESS error experience are lying, but you and I both know that is not the case.

Balls in your court.


AJ

Hi everyone,

We've been following this thread closely and I wanted to make sure I got the right information before posting here.
Here are the facts:

• The system works as follows: When the vehicle is started, the DESS module looks for a signal from the key, relayed to it via the antenna (which is just an extension of the module itself). Then, the DESS module lets the ECM know that the proper, authenticated key is present and matches the ECM, and the vehicle can be operated.
• There are different possible causes for a DESS error, and different ways for the error to manifest itself. For the vast majority of cases we've seen, neither the ignition, antenna or ECM needed to be replaced. For folks who did experience a DESS issue, replacing the DESS module itself to the latest part number is the appropriate fix.
• If, somehow, you've had a DESS failure after having the DESS module replaced to the newest part number (that occurred more than once, was not due to interference, etc), it could point to an error in one of the other aforementioned systems. Your dealer can diagnose it for you, look up any error codes and if needed our techs will assist them.
• For obvious reasons, BRP doesn't recommend nor support disabling of the DESS system.

Incorrect. If I don't respond right away, it's to make sure I have all the facts straight so that I don't provide any misinformation.

[pitzerwm]

My understanding that Dealers do no have the megatech license for the BUDS system. Without that license they can not disable the DESS. I'm pretty sure that they aren't going to give that to any dealer even if the dealer wanted it. My understanding is that the company that actually created the BUDS system is not part of BRP, and they sell the system and licenses to other people. I bought the system so I wouldn't be at the mercy of a bad dealer. As I have stated above, I have the Megatech license and you can disable the DESS. My bike is a 2014 with 16K miles on it. I haven't decided to disable mine yet.

IMO BRP has not really addressed this issue and based on what Steve is saying they never will. Just like the 2013 heat issue blame the victim, since no one is dying the government probably won't step in. The fact that Mike T got nothing from BRP proves to me that there won't be any help other than replacing parts when they have to. Since the 2013's DESS never had an issue and police bikes will never have the problem shows that if they really wanted to fix it, they could. Sure it would cost a few bucks, but as long as they have no competition there is nothing to motivate them to do something.

I doubt if the CEO of BRP will show up at the 10 year thing next year. Just in the off chance he would show up I won't be going because I would probably end up in a Canadian jail.

[pitzerwm]

Just a thought, but no real reverse

[Ex-Rocket]

Just a thought, but no real reverse

Sorry, but that is one ugly bike. The front end needs a lot of work to even get to being nice to look at.