Can anyone explain what aftermarket end links actually DO?

[DickB]

HOW exactly do they work better than stock? I get that plastic is more flexible than metal, but I can't see how the stock links flex even a millimeter. I shot this slowmo video going over bumps and I'm not seeing any flex. If the flex is so small that it can't be seen, HOW does that make a difference? On smooth pavement, the A arms aren't moving, the end links aren't moving, the sway bar has no torsion. How can metal links make a difference in that case?

(I'm not talking about aftermarket sway bars - this is about end links only.)

Here are some comments from the Riker Mods Facebook group:

"I have them and what difference it maid with how the bike handles at high speeds"

"definetely recommend the baja ron sway bar and end links made a hugee difference for me"

"You won't be disappointed..its a noticeable change...keeps you from floating feeling...in my opinion"

"The sway bar link smooths the motion transfer between the sway bar and the control arm."

Please explain HOW they do this. Why is the motion of the stock links not "smooth"?

"I noticed the handling difference before I got out of the neighborhood. And, on the highway, my bike didnt hobble and float anymore, like none, it was fixed!"

"The noticable change is that it helps with body roll a little better which in turn affects how your cornering abilities."

Please explain how metal links help with body roll more than stock links.

"The Baja Ron are NOT plastic, so are stiffer and there is no “give” under those same riding conditions thus that squirrelly feeling goes away."
How much "give" do you think the stock links have? I'm not seeing any.

Most comments are along these lines. Fewer have tried them and noticed no difference. If there is a noticeable difference, WHAT is the mechanism that does this?

The first slomo video is the right side, hard left turn, aggressive enough to wake up the Stability Control nanny. The camera shifted down a bit so you can't see the top of the end link, but you can see enough. Using the bolt in the upper center of the video as a reference, you can see how much the A arm moved. Do you see any flex in the stock end link?

The second slomo video is going over some bumps in the pavement.

 

[BajaRon]

HOW exactly do they work better than stock? I get that plastic is more flexible than metal, but I can't see how the stock links flex even a millimeter. I shot this slowmo video going over bumps and I'm not seeing any flex. If the flex is so small that it can't be seen, HOW does that make a difference? On smooth pavement, the A arms aren't moving, the end links aren't moving, the sway bar has no torsion. How can metal links make a difference in that case?

(I'm not talking about aftermarket sway bars - this is about end links only.)

Here are some comments from the Riker Mods Facebook group:

"I have them and what difference it maid with how the bike handles at high speeds"

"definetely recommend the baja ron sway bar and end links made a hugee difference for me"

"You won't be disappointed..its a noticeable change...keeps you from floating feeling...in my opinion"

"The sway bar link smooths the motion transfer between the sway bar and the control arm."

Please explain HOW they do this. Why is the motion of the stock links not "smooth"?

"I noticed the handling difference before I got out of the neighborhood. And, on the highway, my bike didnt hobble and float anymore, like none, it was fixed!"

"The noticable change is that it helps with body roll a little better which in turn affects how your cornering abilities."

Please explain how metal links help with body roll more than stock links.

"The Baja Ron are NOT plastic, so are stiffer and there is no “give” under those same riding conditions thus that squirrelly feeling goes away."
How much "give" do you think the stock links have? I'm not seeing any.

Most comments are along these lines. Fewer have tried them and noticed no difference. If there is a noticeable difference, WHAT is the mechanism that does this?

The first slomo video is the right side, hard left turn, aggressive enough to wake up the Stability Control nanny. The camera shifted down a bit so you can't see the top of the end link, but you can see enough. Using the bolt in the upper center of the video as a reference, you can see how much the A arm moved. Do you see any flex in the stock end link?

The second slomo video is going over some bumps in the pavement.

Take a look at your shocks. They won't be doing anything either. But that doesn't mean upgrading your shocks won't make any difference. The sway bar is completly inert on flat ground going straight ahead. It only comes into play when side force is applied. Hence, as the name implies, 'Sway' bar. It's actually, more accurately, an anti-sway bar.

The sway bar transfers energy from the heavy side to the light side in turns, crosswinds, and anytime you're getting pushed around, like when passing large trucks on the freeway. In all other situations, you'd be fine without any sway bar at all. Just as you could easily run without shocks, straight ahead, when on smooth, even pavement.

The extension and compression (Flex) of the plastic end links absorb energy that the sway bar is attempting to transfer. The plastic end links do not flex a lot. But it's more than enough to make a difference (depending on how heavy you are loaded, and how hard you are taking turns). Plus, plastic end links are subject to failure. That is why people replace them. The amount of handling improvement by installing rigid end links is negligible compared to the full sway bar upgrade. But the added safety and reliability provided by a quality aftermarket end link set is substantial.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bfromla]

OEM for ya:



(not even 2yr old) only 25k miles new; granted, OEM tires, crappy roads, & heavy rider, but relaxed, no rush - laid back casual driving.

 

[Quickdraw]

Take it from one who installed both the BajaRon sway bar and the links, they make a huge difference. No more what I call side-winding down the road. The bike is definitely more stable, especially on bends in the road. To truly know what's going on with your links, you'd have to run in super slo-mo on rougher roads and bends. I bet then you'd see where the stock ones are not as stable.

Those that recommend the upgrade, like myself, know from experiencing the ride before and after the upgrade.

 

[DickB]

Those that recommend the upgrade, like myself, know from experiencing the ride before and after the upgrade.

Several people have installed them and noticed no difference.

What do you mean by "not as stable"? Let's say the stock ones do flex a bit. The important dimension is the length - this is what transmits the A arm movement to the sway bar and applies torque to the bar. I don't see how even a millimeter of flex in the length of the end link would make a significant difference.

 

[DickB]

OEM for ya:

View attachment 202560

(not even 2yr old) only 25k miles new; granted, OEM tires, crappy roads, & heavy rider, but relaxed, no rush - laid back casual driving.

Ouch!

 

[Bfromla]

Sorry forgot to mention the OEM was warranty & repair part has lasted additional 50k+ miles, odometer now at 72kopcorn:

 

[Quickdraw]

Several people have installed them and noticed no difference.

What do you mean by "not as stable"? Let's say the stock ones do flex a bit. The important dimension is the length - this is what transmits the A arm movement to the sway bar and applies torque to the bar. I don't see how even a millimeter of flex in the length of the end link would make a significant difference.

When I first rode the wife's rally home, it was all over the road. Every bump I hit affected the bike's ride. The first thing I did was replace the links and that made a considerable difference. Then I changed the bar and that improved it even more. So yes, IMO, the upgrade makes a difference.

 

[Fatcycledaddy]

Several people have installed them and noticed no difference.

What do you mean by "not as stable"? Let's say the stock ones do flex a bit. The important dimension is the length - this is what transmits the A arm movement to the sway bar and applies torque to the bar. I don't see how even a millimeter of flex in the length of the end link would make a significant difference.

Let me see, in your original post you asked “Can anyone explain what aftermarket end links actually DO?”
Ron quite eloquently did just that with much detail, so that question was answered. Others informed you of their experience’s after putting them on.
You then tried to reason why the flex that Ron described is not important and could not effect the ride or driving. Trust me it does! I installed the swaybar and links on the 2020, and had it on the 2015. Mind you I ride two up fully loaded frunk and bags towing a trailer, it made a huge difference in the body roll in the corners.
The people who say they don't make a differance, ask them how many miles they ride a year, if they are fully loaded, are they lightweight or heavy riders, and do they ride two up? I put several thousand miles on the 2015 before I installed the swaybar and links. I then did it right after a long vacation trip so I knew what it was riding like before and after. Some people install them during the winter time when they arn't riding so the memory of how it road before may not be as clear.
THe person riding very few miles, back and forth on stright roads to the icecream shop and not on some twisty roads will also not notice as much of a differance.

The bottom line is that if you don’t see how it could make a difference and don’t want to spend the money on them, then don’t. No one here is telling you that you MUST have them. We are all just telling you what our experiences are.

 

[Markubis]

The biggest difference I saw with the end link upgrade was changing lanes on the highway. Lane shifts are now crisp and precise where before I would feel the bike dip to the outside of the direction I was trying to go....and that's a freaky feeling...I try to go right but the bike dips to the left. My brain is telling me I need to lean right but the bike is leaning left.

 

[DickB]

The biggest difference I saw with the end link upgrade was changing lanes on the highway. Lane shifts are now crisp and precise where before I would feel the bike dip to the outside of the direction I was trying to go....and that's a freaky feeling...I try to go right but the bike dips to the left. My brain is telling me I need to lean right but the bike is leaning left.

Yes, I read lots of anecdotal posts, some saying they improve handling one way or another, some saying they noticed no change. What I am asking is, if there is an improvement in handling, WHY? What exactly physically is going on? In your case, how do end links make the change that you describe? The only way I see of getting the result that you describe would be with a heavier sway bar.

One supplier says that the stock plastic ones "may" flex; I see none of that in my video. And if they did, why is that detrimental? The end links transmit movement of the lower A arm to the sway bar, which is a torsion spring. Even if the plastic links did flex, how would that alter the amount of torsion to the sway bar? The end links would have to change significantly in length to alter the amount of torsion in the sway bar, and I see absolutely no evidence of that. I just don't see a difference.

Another supplier says "the end links prevent excessive angulation of the wheels". Really. How do end links do that? Why/how would plastic ones allow "excessive angulation of the wheels"?

BTW all three- and four-wheel vehicles tend to lean in the opposite direction of the turn. That is what sway bars are for - to help counteract that natural lean. Two-wheeled vehicle dynamics are completely different.

 

[ThreeWheels]

I don't think you gain any real performance improvements by replacing the OEM end links with metal ones.
You DO, however, gain peace of mind. The plastic links have been known to break.
The metal ones are far more reliable.
Incidentally, BajaRon IMHO sells the best links.
I have no association with BajaRon, other than being a satisfied customer.

As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee.

 

[Markubis]

Yes, I read lots of anecdotal posts, some saying they improve handling one way or another, some saying they noticed no change. What I am asking is, if there is an improvement in handling, WHY? What exactly physically is going on? In your case, how do end links make the change that you describe? The only way I see of getting the result that you describe would be with a heavier sway bar.

One supplier says that the stock plastic ones "may" flex; I see none of that in my video. And if they did, why is that detrimental? The end links transmit movement of the lower A arm to the sway bar, which is a torsion spring. Even if the plastic links did flex, how would that alter the amount of torsion to the sway bar? The end links would have to change significantly in length to alter the amount of torsion in the sway bar, and I see absolutely no evidence of that. I just don't see a difference.

Another supplier says "the end links prevent excessive angulation of the wheels". Really. How do end links do that? Why/how would plastic ones allow "excessive angulation of the wheels"?

BTW all three- and four-wheel vehicles tend to lean in the opposite direction of the turn. That is what sway bars are for - to help counteract that natural lean. Two-wheeled vehicle dynamics are completely different.

For one, your video is recorded going in a straight line. You're not even using end links when driving in a straight line. Second, Plastic stretches and compresses more than aluminum or steel....its a fact.
There is flexing going on with the sway bar too...changing to a thicker sway bar also adds to handing performance.

 

[Vincef329]

Chiming in on this for sure. The end-links transfer vertical movement link between the lower A-arm and sway/stabilizer bar. OEM links are not just plastic, they are fiber reinforced and plenty strong for their task under usual conditions. Of course bumps and potholes, age, neglect, and defects are a reality and can end the life of the link prematurely.

I have particular Ryker experience with end links alone. I replaced just the links on my 2020 Rally with the Spyder extras links and it made quite a noticeable difference in the general stability above 45mph. I turned right around and put the originals back on and sure enough, the jitters, or track needing constant correction, was back. Over the next few weeks I took some exact measurements of the hardware for attaching the OEM links, the bar, and A arm. The A arm and link had 1/4in holes. The links were a sloppy 6mm (slightly smaller than 1/4in) as were the bolts. Compounding this sloppy connection was the bolt shoulders that were not long enough for the arm or the bar end.

In the end I had the original links with new, much improved hardware that stabilized the front end very well. It did not solve the front end diving in turns with any spirited riding like a new bar would do.
Ride safe brother!

 

[DickB]

For one, your video is recorded going in a straight line. You're not even using end links when driving in a straight line. Second, Plastic stretches and compresses more than aluminum or steel....its a fact.
There is flexing going on with the sway bar too...changing to a thicker sway bar also adds to handing performance.

As I noted, the first video is not a straight line. It is a hard left turn, hard enough so that the Stability Control nanny showed up. If you use the nut in the top center of the video as a reference, you see the A arm rising up.

Yes, plastic stretches and compresses more than metal. But how much? None is evident in the video. Let's say it compresses a millimeter. How is that going to have a material effect on the torque applied to the sway bar?

 

[DickB]

Chiming in on this for sure. The end-links transfer vertical movement link between the lower A-arm and sway/stabilizer bar. OEM links are not just plastic, they are fiber reinforced and plenty strong for their task under usual conditions. Of course bumps and potholes, age, neglect, and defects are a reality and can end the life of the link prematurely.

I have particular Ryker experience with end links alone. I replaced just the links on my 2020 Rally with the Spyder extras links and it made quite a noticeable difference in the general stability above 45mph. I turned right around and put the originals back on and sure enough, the jitters, or track needing constant correction, was back. Over the next few weeks I took some exact measurements of the hardware for attaching the OEM links, the bar, and A arm. The A arm and link had 1/4in holes. The links were a sloppy 6mm (slightly smaller than 1/4in) as were the bolts. Compounding this sloppy connection was the bolt shoulders that were not long enough for the arm or the bar end.

In the end I had the original links with new, much improved hardware that stabilized the front end very well. It did not solve the front end diving in turns with any spirited riding like a new bar would do.
Ride safe brother!

Interesting. I guess I am not seeing the problem. The nut and bolt on both sway bar and A arm are clamping the metal ball of the heim joint tightly on my 2019 Rally - I don't find any slop.

So did you replace the bolts (260), and with what?

 

[BajaRon]

Speculation is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. But physics and reality tend to rule the final outcome. Ride a similar vehicle with an upgraded sway bar installed and it is very likely that all your questions will be answered in short order.

 

[DickB]

Speculation is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. But physics and reality tend to rule the final outcome. Ride a similar vehicle with an upgraded sway bar installed and it is very likely that all your questions will be answered in short order.

Not discussing upgraded sway bars. Discussing what if anything metal END LINKS do, and HOW they do it.

 

[Vincef329]

Interesting. I guess I am not seeing the problem. The nut and bolt on both sway bar and A arm are clamping the metal ball of the heim joint tightly on my 2019 Rally - I don't find any slop.

So did you replace the bolts (260), and with what?

Yes 260 I replaced all 4. Ever work on a car front end? Nothing has any slop meaning the tolerances are very tight, even the hardware. That clamping force just ain’t enough, especially at a right angle to the load. It may sound impossible but the proof is in the pudding, first hand and my experience with automotive front ends which the Ryker and Spyder have all the basic components of.

So unfortunately no, I do not have the measurements of the hardware and my fastenal account doesn’t give me the history beyond a year.

From what I remember that hardware was not cheap so I wound up spending nearly as much as I did on those SE links which pretty much did the job anyway. It was fun to tinker around and figure out what’s what and the capabilities/limitations of the OEM parts.

Just to finish the story; I now own a 2022 F3S with a Baja Ron bar and the original links with my hardware and the ride and cornering is great.
Now I’m adding to this post to explain what “my hardware” is on the F3. The upper bolt was so loose that I literally wrapped it in aluminum tape and reinserted it through A-arm no problem. Before you speculate that this was some backyard bs; after a measured and found the circumference and the length of the shoulder with a dial caliper, I used a soldering clamp jig with magnifying glasses to cut 2 strips of the tape the exact size to wrap around the bolt once. I also removed them after 500 miles to check and they were still in great shape.
The lower bolt needed a longer shoulder so I ordered that from fastenal, $18ea +shipping, ouch.

I know I’m gonna get some backlash for what I did! Haha

Beast of luck to you!

 

[WaltzingDingo]

New here, but I'm just going through SlingMods and they have a video that talks specifically about the sway bar AND the end links in an informative Q&A setting, not an install video.
"SlingMods Q&A with Baja Ron Suspension" on the SlingMods YT channel.

The TL : DR though - if you have the sway bar upgrade, you need the end links because the OEM ones will not last due to the increased forces of the more efficient sway bar. They do mention people install the end-links without the sway bar upgrade as well.