Are Straight wound springs going to be better than Progressive rate springs?

[merlot]

Looking for some suspension advice... 2014 RT-S
I recently replaced my front shocks with some locally sourced items (Australia).
I had a choice of normal-medium-heavy springs and chose medium, but having fitted them, I am starting to question the type of springs used (progressive rate). A mate sat on the bike and commented on how loose the bike felt (rocking from side to side while stationary). He has a 2020 RT, and when I rocked his bike (bog stock) it felt stiff as a board.

Things which affect the spring stiffness include the wire diameter and the number of windings, but with progressive wound springs, I've got no idea.

With the geometry of the Spyder, would it not be better for the spring to act (max) as soon as it is loaded and not to resist progressively? I mean it seems to me that once the progressive spring reaches some form of resistance, it's all over (the corner is done) - too late!

I don't want to chase straight wound springs if I don't need them.

The bike handles (feels) fine, but the comparo with the 2020 was alarming.

Thanks... Russ

 

[Mikey]

Have you done the sway bar also? You say it's handling fine, what are you looking for? Is it bottoming out? Tell us more!!!

 

[merlot]

Have you done the sway bar also? You say it's handling fine, what are you looking for? Is it bottoming out? Tell us more!!!

Hi Mikey. Yes, the bike has a swaybar and a Wilber rear shock with the correct spring. I compared it with a mate's 2020 and mine is too soft (side to side rocking), so I am questioning the use of prog rate springs on the front of Spyder

 

[Mikey]

You say side to side rocking, but is that with you standing and rocking it, or on the road rocking side to side as you ride? If it's running down the road fine, then that's great! If you're standing and rocking it in the driveway, then comparing that to your Buds bike is not anything I would compare or be worried about.

Progressive rate springs are made to be soft on the top.

 

[Flier Tuck]

merlot, I know that it does not make a lot of difference, but in your photo the spring is upside down. This does make a difference to unsprung weight that only really has an effect on racing motorbikes and fine tuning of the suspension.

 

[KX5062]

Progressive vs standard springs is super controversial in the suspension world, so I'm not sure you can get a definite answer to that question. However, from the photo you posted it appears that half your spring is fully collapsed, which is not right. The static weight of your machine should not fully collapse the softly wound part of the spring.

 

[BajaRon]

The spring set you have is too light. The correct progressive spring would not start with the entire light portion of the coils fully collapsed in the static position. You've basically got a short linear spring with this setup. There is no doubt that your current setup is less than idea. But if you think it handles fine, then I'm not sure you really have a problem.

Progressive springs work better on a 1:1 ratio suspension (straight up and down). They tend not to work as well when the shocks are at a high angle, as with the Spyder. The Spyder front suspension actually has some progressive action built in. As the suspension collapses, the ratio moves closer to a 1:1 ratio. Giving the shock/spring assembly increasing leverage against the suspension.

In my humble opinion, the answer is adjustability, not a heavier spring. Even if you believe that a heavier spring is necessary, I still highly recommend adjustability to go with it.

Think about it. What is the chance that you're going to end up with the exactly right spring rate? It's much more likely that you'll end up too light or too stiff. And what happens when you go from lightly loaded to packed out? Without any way to adjust for this, you're not going to end up with the right spring rate.

Add a different spring, and you get what you get. Hopefully, it works out for you.

Add adjustability, and even if your spring rate isn't ideal, you can adjust it until it is; or at least get it a lot closer to right than a setup that offers no adjustment.

 

[merlot]

The spring set you have is too light. The correct progressive spring would not start with the entire light portion of the coils fully collapsed in the static position. You've basically got a short linear spring with this setup. There is no doubt that your current setup is less than idea. But if you think it handles fine, then I'm not sure you really have a problem.

Progressive springs work better on a 1:1 ratio suspension (straight up and down). They tend not to work as well when the shocks are at a high angle, as with the Spyder. The Spyder front suspension actually has some progressive action built in. As the suspension collapses, the ratio moves closer to a 1:1 ratio. Giving the shock/spring assembly increasing leverage against the suspension.

In my humble opinion. The answer is adjustability, not a heavier spring. Even if you believe that a heavier spring is necessary, I still highly recommend adjustability to go with it.

Think about it. What is the chance that you're going to end up with the exact right spring rate? It's much more likely that you'll end up too light or too stiff. And what happens when you go from lightly loaded to packed out? Without any way to adjust for this, you're not going to end up with the right spring rate.

Add a different spring, and you get what you get. Hopefully, it works out for you.

Add adjustability. And even if you're spring rate isn't ideal, you can adjust it until it is. Or at least a lot closer to right than a setup that offers no adjustment.

Thanks for the reply Ron... I didn't want to chase the suspension with different rate springs due to the cost. I would rather bite the bullet and go down a different path, if anything. Yes, the bike felt ok riding, but I wasn't sure if that was just the placebo effect. I was really dismayed when my friend came over for a wheel alignment (toe in/out adjust) and he got on my bike and commented on how "loose" it was (rocking side to side at rest). There was nothing really wrong with the 80,000 kms OEM shocks that I replaced, but I always wanted to set the bike a little firmer.

I rang the supplier and he advised upping the preload and increasing the rebound number. He also defended the use of progressive springs in the front of the Spyder, so I am now a little more accepting of the set up. I wound the shock up one turn and went from rebound #2 clicker (of 4) to #3, and the bike does seem to resist rocking a little better.

I love your comment "you've basically got a short linear spring with this setup" - this will stop me from looking for a linear spring.

Thanks again for the reply.

russ

 

[BajaRon]

I love your comment "you've basically got a short linear spring with this setup" - this will stop me from looking for a linear spring.

Thanks again for the reply.

russ

Hmmm. It appears that I should have been more clear with my comment. A longer linier spring would be preferable to the short one you now have. It would give you better compliance over small bumps while still being able to handle large ones. Why have a progressive spring that isn't progressive? Your progressive portion has essentially become nothing more than an expensive spacer.

Obviously this is not a Spyder. But a properly matched progressive spring will look a lot more like this than does yours. Here, you can see that the progressive portion still has space between the coils allowing compliance. This is the whole reason for getting progressive springs in the first place.

There are a lot of opinions out there, and mine is just one more. But show me a proper setup that works where nearly 1/2 of the coils are rendered functionally useless. Not trying to disagree or make anyone feel bad, just putting the information out there.

 

[askitee]

Hi Merlot,

I'd say no. I have the same rear shock as you and the aim for my set was a comfortable ride and better handling. I have them on all corners

The part of the variable spring that is "wider spaced" (at the top) is designed to soak up the little bumps while you are moving along, and the tighter windings soak up the larger impacts. You might be interpreting this as being softer, which it is for the reason stated.

My '17 RTL is still soft enough that on long journeys even my wife can remain comfortable and not want out from a sore derriere. We've been able to travel up to 600Kms a day and she is still happy... ish. At the same time, when I am alone and want to have a fang, I can. This is where treating it a bit like a car - you get everything tight as you execute the corner and keeping the bike level.

 

[BajaRon]

(Partial Quote)

The part of the variable spring that is "wider spaced" (at the top) is designed to soak up the little bumps while you are moving along, and the tighter windings soak up the larger impacts. You might be interpreting this as being softer, which it is for the reason stated.

Actually, askitee, it's the other way around.

You are correct that the usual orientation of a progressive spring is light windings on top, heavy windings on the bottom. This is to reduce the un-sprung weight, as pointed out by Flier Tuck. Not usually a big deal on a Spyder. But the reason his coils are all tightly compressed at the bottom is because that is the lightly wound, progressive portion of the spring, which is the entire subject of this thread.

Those coils aren't doing anything but taking up room - not something that you want from a spring.

 

[askitee]

Actually, askitee, it's the other way around.

You are correct that the usual orientation of a progressive spring is light windings on top, heavy windings on the bottom. This is to reduce the un-sprung weight, as pointed out by Flier Tuck. Not usually a big deal on a Spyder. But the reason his coils are all tightly compressed at the bottom is because that is the lightly wound, progressive portion of the spring, which is the entire subject of this thread.

Those coils aren't doing anything but taking up room - not something that you want from a spring.

You're right. Brain fart on my part.

 

[BajaRon]

You're right. Brain fart on my part.

No problem. Errors are allowed. We all need a Mulligan from time to time.

Perfection is reserved for the next life!~