Why won't my Spyder trans Auto upshift?

[ob1jeeper]

After buying this 2011 RT in attempts to feel safer about riding with the missus on the pillion (over 60 years of 2-wheel 2-up riding, latest being a Goldwing), I discovered my purchase came with a hidden flaw in that the brake warning lamp illuminated as I unloaded it from the trailer...

I was unwilling to ride it further until repaired. Anyway, after getting the 2011 RT back from the repair shop, where it received a brake bleed to cure a brake warning lamp issue, I took a couple short rides (less than 10 miles) around the subdivision streets, to confirm correction of the brake warning lamp illumination before venturing out of the subdivision.

The next day, on the first two rides of 20-ish miles each, I got out on the highway (65 mph limit), where I noted the trans was upshifting upon reaching certain speeds, similar to what an automatic in a car would do. Cool beans I figured... Surprised and LOVE this feature.

Next day on a ride again out on the highway, I stopped for fuel, where the starter would not crank when finished fueling. Pushed it to the curb, scanned the manual, and farted around pushing buttons, making sure it was in N, etc. etc. Finally, after about 10-15 minutes of no crank, I discovered that when I put my foot on the brake, it cranked and fired up (I missed seeing that when poring over the manual )

Anyway, on the ride homeward (~8 miles), it no longer upshifted automatically, requiring a manual upshift for all upshifts.. The auto upshifting has not returned after 4 more rides of about 20-ish miles each.

The auto-downshift still functions as before, but for the life of me, I've scoured the owners manual, and looked online, but I don't seem to be able to find any information on how to reset it for auto upshifts...

Anyone care to clue me in on how to reset this function?

Thanks in advance for helping a 2011 Can Am RT newbie out...

 

[BajaRon]

My surprise is that your Spyder upshifted automatically. Because the SE transmission is not designed to do so.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm quite surprised that your Spyder EVER auto-upshifted, as that's not something our Spyder's manual transmissions do. And before you say "but my Spyder has an auto", I'm sorry, unless it's got an entirely unprecedented and until now completely unknown after market transmission,
it's NOT an Auto, it's a Semi-auto that usually ONLY has a 'fail-safe downshift'!

Spyders only ever came out with Manual Transmissions, the SM5, and Semi-Automatic transmissions, the SE5 until 2013 (which is what yours will have); and from 2014 on, the SM6 and SE6, until about 2018-ish (someone will have a better date) when they went All Semi-Automatic/SE6. But these 'Semi-Automatics' are really just the same MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of a centrifugal clutch ('til 2013) or an electro-hydraulic clutch (from 2014) and a 'computer managed, solenoid operated' Quick-Shift feature to actually make the (manual) gear changes the rider initiates in the manual transmission via the flappy paddles - just like (but better than ) the aftermarket 'Quick-Shifters' you can buy & instal on any other MANUAL motorcycle gear shift! They are Still a manual gearbox, just with a sexy shifting arrangement - and the 'auto downshift' feature was designed and intended to be a 'fail-safe feature' to avoid the rider forgetting to downshift early enough and lugging the engine too much, thereby damaging the trans &/or clutch, something which still happened in the early days, especially on the SE5's, before riders realised these Spyder things NEEDED at least 3500 rpm to fully engage the Centrifugal clutch! They're not a Harley, they need and thrive on REVS!! In the case of the pre-2014 V-Twin powered Spyders with the SE5 transmissions like yours, the centrifugal clutch will start you moving at about 1100 rpm, but won't fully lock up until around 3500 rpm, and the engine doesn't really come on song until about 5000 rpm, then really does its thing all the way to the rev limiter beyond 8000 rpm.

So really, whatever is wrong with your Spyder isn't that it has STOPPED doing auto-upshifts, but rather, that it EVER DID an auto-upshift?! I'm not even sure how it could do that, unless something in the trans is seriously worn &/or slipping; but even then, it shouldn't be up-shifting without the flappy paddle initiation?!

Can you give us more detail on exactly the WHAT & HOW everything was happening/you were doing? Were you touching the flappy paddles with your left thumb and forefinger at all??

 

[jzeiler]

I am curious to know what happens if you HOLD the upshift button and could a temporary short in the circuit cause what he experienced? I guess I'll try it next time I go for a ride.

 

[ob1jeeper]

I'm quite surprised that your Spyder EVER auto-upshifted, as that's not something our Spyder's manual transmissions do. And before you say "but my Spyder has an auto", I'm sorry, unless it's got an entirely unprecedented and until now completely unknown after market transmission,
it's NOT an Auto, it's a Semi-auto that usually ONLY has a 'fail-safe downshift'!

Spyders only ever came out with Manual Transmissions, the SM5, and Semi-Automatic transmissions, the SE5 until 2013 (which is what yours will have); and from 2014 on, the SM6 and SE6, until about 2018-ish (someone will have a better date) when they went All Semi-Automatic/SE6. But these 'Semi-Automatics' are really just the same MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of a centrifugal clutch ('til 2013) or an electro-hydraulic clutch (from 2014) and a 'computer managed, solenoid operated' Quick-Shift feature to actually make the (manual) gear changes the rider initiates in the manual transmission via the flappy paddles - just like (but better than ) the aftermarket 'Quick-Shifters' you can buy & instal on any other MANUAL motorcycle gear shift! They are Still a manual gearbox, just with a sexy shifting arrangement - and the 'auto downshift' feature was designed and intended to be a 'fail-safe feature' to avoid the rider forgetting to downshift early enough and lugging the engine too much, thereby damaging the trans &/or clutch, something which still happened in the early days, especially on the SE5's, before riders realised these Spyder things NEEDED at least 3500 rpm to fully engage the Centrifugal clutch! They're not a Harley, they need and thrive on REVS!! In the case of the pre-2014 V-Twin powered Spyders with the SE5 transmissions like yours, the centrifugal clutch will start you moving at about 1100 rpm, but won't fully lock up until around 3500 rpm, and the engine doesn't really come on song until about 5000 rpm, then really does its thing all the way to the rev limiter beyond 8000 rpm.

So really, whatever is wrong with your Spyder isn't that it has STOPPED doing auto-upshifts, but rather, that it EVER DID an auto-upshift?! I'm not even sure how it could do that, unless something in the trans is seriously worn &/or slipping; but even then, it shouldn't be up-shifting without the flappy paddle initiation?!

Can you give us more detail on exactly the WHAT & HOW everything was happening/you were doing? Were you touching the flappy paddles with your left thumb and forefinger at all??

Thanks for the reply. You asked what I did that was so unusual? Nothing that I would consider unusual, or was aware of.

FWIW: This is my first experience with a Can Am, or any type of 3-wheeled vehicle (other than a tricycle during my VERY early youth). Having never ridden a Can Am before (I've only had it for just shy of 2 months), and only gotten to ride it this week*

*(see my previous post re: brake failure light illumination issues, noted when unloading it from the trailer when I got home, and the attempted corrections via a local Can Am dealership who failed to fix it after a month (+) of having it in the shop...)

Other than unloading it on/off the trailer to move it into the garage or drop it off at a repair facility, I had not gotten over about 3-5 mph. The first time I actually donned a helmet and rode it faster than that, was around the subdivision @ about 20 mph, to get the hang of the controls, where I upshifted manually and operated the lights, etc. etc. etc, to learn the controls and their locations.

It was not until I got comfortable with all that, and out of the subdivision, onto the highway where speed limits were 65, that I noticed it shifted before I even moved my thumb to activate a shift. I was not using heavy throttle, as I was still getting used to the machine, and the stark difference in ride and handling over a 2-wheeler.

It continued auto-upshifting through the gears into 5th, as speeds continued to rise, and then auto downshifted as I approached round-abouts, and again auto up-shifted as I accelerated smoothly away from the round-abouts. For the remainder of that ride, of approx 20 miles, and again the following day, it continued automatically upshifting, right up until after I had stopped for fuel.

After refueling, I had a dickens of a time getting it to start, and operated nearly every control button I could find in attempts to get it into N, as the instrument panel indicated it was in 1st, though I am positive that I had shifted into N before activating the parking brake and shutting down.

Anyway, after that stop, I was surprised when I accelerated away onto the city street up to ~35 that it did not auto-shift like it had been doing. Which is the reason I posted...

It appears that in my ignorance of this machine, I have ruffled a few feathers by my lack of not being familiar with how these things are SUPPOSED to operate. Now that I've been informed that there is NO WAY what I witnessed is possible, I will not continue to pursue this here, but I WILL be paying extra-close attention. If it continues to do things it is not supposed to do, I will simply sell it and let someone who loves these things to figure it out, and go buy a small convertible for our travels.

If it were not for the fact that we had a bit of a fright on our last week-long Goldwing ride when we had to stop on a slight incline near a RR crossing, where some light amount of scattered gravel on the road surface was present. When I put my foot down to come to a full stop, I had a moment when I almost dropped it all as my foot slipped on the loose pea-gravel.

Bottom line is that I've reached the age that holding up a 2 wheeler fully loaded with Mom on the pillion, and the bags loaded for a longer trip, has me worried that I might drop it, and at our age healing takes WAY longer than it used to. IF that were not the case, I would have never considered a 3-wheeled vehicle to replace the Goldwing.

 

[Peter Aawen]

You haven't ruffled any feathers (that I'm aware of, anyway) but many people, even seasoned Spyder Ryders, some we've seen here on the Forum, mistakenly assume that the Spyder's Semi-Automatic SE Transmissions are some sort of 'Auto' transmission like those you'd see in many cars, when they really aren't at all!! Pull the Spyder's SE Trans apart, and besides the presence of the revs (SE5)/oil pressure(SE6) based clutches & the electro-solenoid shift mechanisms they have instead of a manual clutch & foot operated selector levers etc. the internals of the SE's are EXACTLY the same as the SM manual transmissions, and they have no real way of initiating an up-shift apart from the computer managed, rider initiated (by triggering the flappy paddles, which can be extremely sensitive on some Spyders) electro-solenoids, so you telling us that your SE5 up-shifted by itself is simply ASTOUNDING!!

So we're not trying to offend, or even doubting what you've experienced, but more trying to highlight the realities of the transmission to someone who may not yet know; and trying to make sense of what you've told us, maybe even help you identify what happened. So please don't take offence, but rather, can you work with us to try and work out what was going on?? I wonder if your thumb was actually just grazing the 'UP' paddle, or did the previous owner know some electronic guru who, unlike all the others who've tried and failed, managed to re-programm your Spyder's ECU to somehow trigger those up-shifts at certain revs?? If so, you'd think they'd tell the World, and we haven't heard anything of the sort. And if they did know such a guru who managed to do that without spreading the word, you've still gotta ask why it has now stopped?

All that aside, these Spyder things are fantastic machines to ride, and given a skilled and agile rider they'll out-brake almost everything else on the road and ridden appropriately, they'll show a clean rear tire to just about anything on 2 or 4 wheels thru the tight twisties with short straights, at least until the corners start opening out and the straights become longer, where the dirty great wall of air they hafta push outta the way starts coming into play and the more streamlined machines that are better suited to sweeping curves and long straights can overhaul them; and yet if you don't want to work them or yourself that hard, they can be comfortable, stable, and easy to ride cruisers &/or touring machines. Pillion riders tend to love the RT's or later F3T's, at least once they get used to the centrifugal forces. Very few people who come to these Spyders from 2 wheelers of any sort go back to 2 wheels, except maybe for a bit of solo riding where they can still do a bit of leaning & let the bike make you think you're a skilled rider!

Ps: There's a bunch of discussion already on the Forum about the SE's, and about the dash still showing 1st or R when you try to start - if you do a search & some reading, it'll explain in greater detail, but they will do that in some circumstances, and it's not really a biggie just so long as you remember to put your foot on the brake before trying to start. This is because one of the very first things the computers do as you start will be to make sure it's already in N &/or shift the SE Trans into Neutral as necessary - and they do a bunch of other electronic stuff too, all at basically the same time as cranking the engine over, which all adds up to making these things EXTREMELY power hungry on start up, so make sure your battery is in good nick, but don't leave it on a tender/charger ALL the time, as that can hide a dead/dying battery on first starting as you leave home, but then leave you stranded if you stop when you're well away from home, only to discover that your battery is dead and you can't start again!

 

[TheMariner]

I have ruffled a few feathers by my lack of not being familiar with how these things are SUPPOSED to operate.

No mate... no feathers ruffled at all down this side of the planet. We all have things to learn!

I see you have a 2011 V-twin. I do know the 1330cc SE's won't allow an upshift if the revs are too low, but I'm wondering if you push and hold the shift paddle in this situation, then increase the rpm's, whether it'll upshift 'automatically' once the threshold revs are exceeded?

Even if it does, this might not apply to a V-twin with the centrifugal clutch anyway...

 

[jjc54]

The great thing about the SE is that if it is working correctly it is virtually impossible to kill the motor pulling away from a stop sign. You should never get caught out in traffic trying to get it restarted after you kill it. Seen it many times with other brands!

 

[ob1jeeper]

When riding to meet the fella's for our usual 4:30 am coffee BS session this morning, I paid attention to the shift paddle and its relation to where my thumb was resting. At rest my thumb is ~ 1/2 inch away from the paddle, and I need to consciously extent my thumb to touch the paddle.

That said, I discovered some looseness on center, meaning the paddle moves a few degrees due to road vibrations. Perhaps the centering springs are weak, or perhaps it has dirty/fouled contacts. Theoretically I suppose this is at least a possible reason for both what I experienced, and perhaps why it showed being in 1st after fueling...

At any rate, after a total of approximately 70 miles since I got it back from getting the brakes bled (to extinguish the brake warning lamp), it is now, continuing to shift as you described it should.

I guess the next thing to do, besides to continue to familiarize myself with this toy, is to look at the possibilities that the paddle switch may be going bad... I bought this used unit with approximately 36K on it, so I suppose there is a possibility of switch issues...

 

[Quickdraw]

I noticed that my shift lever is sensitive and sometimes I catch myself pressing it lightly and find out it shifted to the next gear. The plan was to shift but it took very little pressure on the lever. So, my question is, did you have your thumb on the lever and put a little pressure on it not realizing you were actually shifting?

 

[LongIsland]

When riding my 2014 RTL, I too noticed the "automatic" upshifting. After a few times of this phenomenon, I mentioned it to my buddy. His response: "that's impossible." I paid attention to when this phenomenon occurred and noted that the paddle shifter was very sensitive and the least amount of pressure, a slight movement of my thumb, my sleeve pushing against the paddle seemed to cause "automatic" shifting. Since no mechanical problems ever occurred, and since I thought I found the source of "automatic" shifting, I never thought of it as an issue. At 60K miles I traded her for a 2022 RTL and am waiting for the same thing to happen.

 

[Mikey]

The auto-downshift still functions as before, but for the life of me, I've scoured the owners manual, and looked online, but I don't seem to be able to find any information on how to reset it for auto upshifts...

You need a Ryker!!! It will upshift and downshift

 

[ob1jeeper]

When riding my 2014 RTL, I too noticed the "automatic" upshifting. After a few times of this phenomenon, I mentioned it to my buddy. His response: "that's impossible." I paid attention to when this phenomenon occurred and noted that the paddle shifter was very sensitive and the least amount of pressure, a slight movement of my thumb, my sleeve pushing against the paddle seemed to cause "automatic" shifting. Since no mechanical problems ever occurred, and since I thought I found the source of "automatic" shifting, I never thought of it as an issue. At 60K miles I traded her for a 2022 RTL and am waiting for the same thing to happen.

Thanks for that reply... It's good to know that I'm not the only one who's experienced such an issue. After the initial responses to this thread, I was worried that this unit may have some major issues ($$) making it unsuitable for keeping in the fleet.

I want to put a couple of tanks full through this unit, before I take anything apart for servicing. Once I'm confident that it's basically a sound machine with no $$ issues popping up, it will be getting some maintenance and updates fo r fluid & filter changes, tires, a drive belt, brake wear checked, etc.

 

[ollicat]

I'm quite surprised that your Spyder EVER auto-upshifted, as that's not something our Spyder's manual transmissions do. And before you say "but my Spyder has an auto", I'm sorry, unless it's got an entirely unprecedented and until now completely unknown after market transmission,
it's NOT an Auto, it's a Semi-auto that usually ONLY has a 'fail-safe downshift'!

Spyders only ever came out with Manual Transmissions, the SM5, and Semi-Automatic transmissions, the SE5 until 2013 (which is what yours will have); and from 2014 on, the SM6 and SE6, until about 2018-ish (someone will have a better date) when they went All Semi-Automatic/SE6. But these 'Semi-Automatics' are really just the same MANUAL gearboxes with the addition of a centrifugal clutch ('til 2013) or an electro-hydraulic clutch (from 2014) and a 'computer managed, solenoid operated' Quick-Shift feature to actually make the (manual) gear changes the rider initiates in the manual transmission via the flappy paddles - just like (but better than ) the aftermarket 'Quick-Shifters' you can buy & instal on any other MANUAL motorcycle gear shift! They are Still a manual gearbox, just with a sexy shifting arrangement - and the 'auto downshift' feature was designed and intended to be a 'fail-safe feature' to avoid the rider forgetting to downshift early enough and lugging the engine too much, thereby damaging the trans &/or clutch, something which still happened in the early days, especially on the SE5's, before riders realised these Spyder things NEEDED at least 3500 rpm to fully engage the Centrifugal clutch! They're not a Harley, they need and thrive on REVS!! In the case of the pre-2014 V-Twin powered Spyders with the SE5 transmissions like yours, the centrifugal clutch will start you moving at about 1100 rpm, but won't fully lock up until around 3500 rpm, and the engine doesn't really come on song until about 5000 rpm, then really does its thing all the way to the rev limiter beyond 8000 rpm.

So really, whatever is wrong with your Spyder isn't that it has STOPPED doing auto-upshifts, but rather, that it EVER DID an auto-upshift?! I'm not even sure how it could do that, unless something in the trans is seriously worn &/or slipping; but even then, it shouldn't be up-shifting without the flappy paddle initiation?!

Can you give us more detail on exactly the WHAT & HOW everything was happening/you were doing? Were you touching the flappy paddles with your left thumb and forefinger at all??

Good info. So to be clear, on a 2021 RTL, I should be shifting at 3500 rpm for the centrifugal clutch to fully engage?

 

[Peter Aawen]

Good info. So to be clear, on a 2021 RTL, I should be shifting at 3500 rpm for the centrifugal clutch to fully engage?

NO! That '3500 rpm' applies to the V-Twin powered Spyders with the SE5 five speed transmissions which have the Centrifugal clutch, like the 2011 RT that @ob1jeeper owns. If your Spyder is a 2021 model, then like all of the other 2014 & on RT's and all the 2015 & on F3's, then your Spyder WON'T have a V-Twin engine and a 'Centrifugal clutch' that relies on revs; instead, it'll have the 1330 3-cylinder engine and if it's a semi-auto, it'll have the SE6 six speed transmission with an engine oil pressure operated, computer controlled, hydraulic clutch, so you can change gears at anything over about 1000 rpm, and just so long as the engine is running, the clutch will be engaging fully pretty much immediately.

You do still want to try and avoid lugging the engine & trans tho, despite, or maybe because of the fact that the 1330 Triple motor has torque out the wazoo right off idle - so you probably want to make a practice of changing UP with the revs no lower than about 1500 rpm, altho it'll still pull away if you do change lower, albeit stressing things somewhat needlessly; and if you aren't relying on the 'automatic fail-safe downshift' to do all your downshifting for you (some people do get a little lazy, but it will work... ), which really only changes DOWN once the revs
drop juuust BELOW the 'ideal safe stress limit' for whichever gear it's changing out of, then you'll want to initiate your downshifts with the flappy paddle under your fore-finger before you get to the 'auto fail-safe downshift' revs, only the applicable revs for that aren't 'exactly specified' or quite so definitive, as they will likely vary somewhat between Spyders, conditions, user throttle application techniques, gears, and a bunch more variables besides. So just like changing down on any other manual gearbox, working that out for every downshift and doing it well all the time is really a skill you'll need to develop and work on... but since your Spyder has a Semi-automatic transmission with a computer controlled 'fail-safe', you can always take the lazy route and let the Spyder's computer cover your arse for you look after you/the downshifts instead.