A strange problem - engine stumbling and idling rough, now all sorts of codes - any ideas?

[Spyder Hawk]

Hey group,
I have a 2018 Can-Am Spyder F3 Limited. Engine wise it is stock and it has never had a problem until now. I was coming home, about a block from my house, when I came to a stop sign. When I left the stop sign the bike stumbled for a second and then took off. I thought it was strange but continued home. I rounded the corner and the bike downshifted real hard. I came to a stop and the bike started to idle rough. When I let my foot off the brake the bike moved forward without the throttle being engaged. I know a little bit of movement is normal but I clocked it at 5 to 7 miles an hour with no assist from the throttle. I pulled in to my driveway and it started to idle very rough but the RPM's never changed. They stayed consistent at 800 to 900 despite what the engine did. The brakes also feel kind of spongy now.
I did all the things I can do on my own. I changed the fuel filter, fuel lines, air filter, radiator fluid, oil, brakes, and have taken it for 3 diagnostics. All says the bike is good. No codes or warning signs on the first diagnostic. The second one the dealership had the 18 year old kid that washes the bikes do the diagnostic and he drained the battery. I have a lithium battery and the kid hooked it up to a standard battery tender and screw up one of the cells in the battery. So now it is throwing, according to him, all kinds of codes. He wouldn't tell me what codes and refused to give me any paperwork. I left the dealership and now the bike will not downshift and runs worse than before. I replaced the battery and that brought the voltage back up where it should be. The rest of the problems are still there.
I took it for another diagnostic some 100 miles from me. All the shops in California seemed to have lost all Mater Certified Can-Am Mechanics. This one shop that I have taken it to now has a platinum rating but even they have lost their mechanic as of 2 months ago. They were nice and professional and scoped out the bike for me, with BUDS 2, for 57.00 bucks. They came up with codes that relate to the ECM, VCM, and TCM. The most relevant they said was P2806 the Gear Position Sensor. Which was a big job because the sensor is inside or behind the transmission I think. He did point out that there was a grinding noise coming from the transmission side of the engine. As far as I know it has always sounded like that but I listened to other F3's and none of them sound like mine.

Anybody heard of or had this problem? Any kind of help would be nice because I am stumped.

 

[Peter Aawen]

All those codes coming up after your battery was killed would almost certainly be in response to the low voltage from the dying battery, and should go away once the voltage is corrected, but of course they'll still be stored as having occurred. With any luck, they shouldn't be a problem, and I hope you didn't pay out $$ to fix things that possibly didn't really need fixing at all!! There's many, many threads and reports here of this cascade of multiple codes due to low voltage, and rarely are they anything to worry about, except for the need to recharge/replace the battery!

As for the rest, I wonder if all the rest was a battery voltage problem too?? Could your battery have already been troubled before the bike washer got to it?? The revs staying stable while the engine stumbled could well just be the electronic tacho not catching up in time to show the changes, and just about everything else has been associated with low voltage before too - apart from the 'grinding noise'?? Altho even those, once you start worrying, can be quite normal but not previously recognised. I wonder??

Has it happened again, or gone away and never come back?

 

[Spyder Hawk]

Hey Peter,
The battery was replaced but the problems still remain. The battery was fine before the crappy dealer got a hold of it. They expect me to trust them to do the sprocket recall too, lol. It will be a cold day in hell I can tell you that.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Hey Peter,
The battery was replaced but the problems still remain. The battery was fine before the crappy dealer got a hold of it. They expect me to trust them to do the sprocket recall too, lol. It will be a cold day in hell I can tell you that.

Have all the codes gone, and you're just left with the rough running etc, or do you still have all the codes and the rough running??

If you've still got them all, and or the engine won't even start, I wonder if water boy killed more than just the battery?!

 

[Mikey]

Sure, sounds like you need someone that knows transmissions! Good luck hope that gremlin comes out so you can chop his head off.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Hey Hawk. We may not be able to fix it here, and I don't necessary KNOW transmissions, but long before you had any codes and long before you had a battery get fried, you had a dragging clutch. I think that we can all agree on that. You didn't mention otherwise so I assume it's still dragging. That's what started this. Even though there was a drag on the engine, the ECM was attempting to maintain proper idle speed as it should. That's why your idle speed was normal but you were traveling at 5 - 7 MPH.

The SE6 clutch is hydraulically operated. The Hydraulic Control Module (HCM) applies oil pressure to the clutch pack to supply the clamping force to engage the clutch through the use of various solenoid valves and by sensing engine parameters. To disengage the clutch, the opposite occurs. The solenoid valves reposition and dump off oil pressure, allowing the springs inside the clutch to remove the clamping force.

So then, do we have a hydraulic problem or a mechanical problem inside the clutch. That's where you need to find a competent shop that can do more than just read the codes. Don't know what kind of diagnostics you had done, but the bike can't be good if the clutch is dragging, downshifting hard, and traveling that fast with the foot off the brake. Clearly, a dragging clutch will interfere with shifting, put a load on the engine, and no doubt trigger codes related to shifting and engine control. That's most likely where the codes that you have now are coming from. I don't think there is anything wrong with your GBPS. Which, by the way, is not a big job except for removing a couple of body panels and a splash pan, and running a RESET in BUDS2. It's there on the left side of the gearbox. See pic. It's just sensing the shifting malfunctions.

As long as you have been using the proper oil for wet clutches, and doing the maintenance, including changing the HCM filter on schedule, it looks like this could be just one of those sudden mechanical failures that happen. You need a good shop to run all the HCM and clutch diagnostics to find the root cause. The only good shop I know of out west there is in Vancouver, Washington. I'm sure you don't want to go all that way. Maybe someone else has some leads on that. Good luck.

 

[Spyder Hawk]

Hey Hawk. We may not be able to fix it here, and I don't necessary KNOW transmissions, but long before you had any codes and long before you had a battery get fried, you had a dragging clutch. I think that we can all agree on that. You didn't mention otherwise so I assume it's still dragging. That's what started this. Even though there was a drag on the engine, the ECM was attempting to maintain proper idle speed as it should. That's why your idle speed was normal but you were traveling at 5 - 7 MPH.

The SE6 clutch is hydraulically operated. The Hydraulic Control Module (HCM) applies oil pressure to the clutch pack to supply the clamping force to engage the clutch through the use of various solenoid valves and by sensing engine parameters. To disengage the clutch, the opposite occurs. The solenoid valves reposition and dump off oil pressure, allowing the springs inside the clutch to remove the clamping force.

So then, do we have a hydraulic problem or a mechanical problem inside the clutch. That's where you need to find a competent shop that can do more than just read the codes. Don't know what kind of diagnostics you had done, but the bike can't be good if the clutch is dragging, downshifting hard, and traveling that fast with the foot off the brake. Clearly, a dragging clutch will interfere with shifting, put a load on the engine, and no doubt trigger codes related to shifting and engine control. That's most likely where the codes that you have now are coming from. I don't think there is anything wrong with your GBPS. Which, by the way, is not a big job except for removing a couple of body panels and a splash pan, and running a RESET in BUDS2. It's there on the left side of the gearbox. See pic. It's just sensing the shifting malfunctions.

As long as you have been using the proper oil for wet clutches, and doing the maintenance, including changing the HCM filter on schedule, it looks like this could be just one of those sudden mechanical failures that happen. You need a good shop to run all the HCM and clutch diagnostics to find the root cause. The only good shop I know of out west there is in Vancouver, Washington. I'm sure you don't want to go all that way. Maybe someone else has some leads on that. Good luck.



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Thanks for the info Snowbelt. We are kind of stuck up a creek here in North Cali. There don't seem to be anyone that works on Spyder's anymore and there is only so much the backyard mechanic can do. I'll talk to the shop tomorrow to see if they have any word yet from BRP.

 

[Snowbelt Spyder]

Northern Cali. Well, there is a Pro Caliber in Bend, OR.

 

[Spyder Hawk]

Have all the codes gone, and you're just left with the rough running etc, or do you still have all the codes and the rough running??

If you've still got them all, and or the engine won't even start, I wonder if water boy killed more than just the battery?!

Peter,
It is strange because it throws different codes every time. Leave it to me to have a strange problem. It's still running the same, rough and tumble, as it was.

It starts and seems OK when it is on the freeway. But as soon as you slow down it gets all upset.

Northern Cali. Well, there is a Pro Caliber in Bend, OR.

That is a little to far for me. It would cost a small fortune to get it there for service. I hope it doesn't come to that, but thanks for the info.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Peter,
It is strange because it throws different codes every time. Leave it to me to have a strange problem. It's still running the same, rough and tumble, as it was.

It starts and seems OK when it is on the freeway. But as soon as you slow down it gets all upset.

If it's just different codes every time, that really does sound like a battery or power issue, rather than anything else. Can you get it properly load tested (noting that anything below 12 volts under load means it won't run well) and maybe test the alternator output too, especially at low revs?? There have been a few reports of alternator issues on these, altho usually they've been the later models, 2020+?? This is Innnterrresting, but I'm sure it's not funny to you at all!! Sorry.

 

[Spyder Hawk]

If it's just different codes every time, that really does sound like a battery or power issue, rather than anything else. Can you get it properly load tested (noting that anything below 12 volts under load means it won't run well) and maybe test the alternator output too, especially at low revs?? There have been a few reports of alternator issues on these, altho usually they've been the later models, 2020+?? This is Innnterrresting, but I'm sure it's not funny to you at all!! Sorry.

It's not the battery or charging system. That has all been ruled out and tested already.

 

[Peter Aawen]

It's not the battery or charging system. That has all been ruled out and tested already.

I do think Snowbelt is more likely on the right path with this, but those 'different codes every time' and the 'as you slow down it gets all upset' juuust make me wonder... How certain are you that the load & charge testing you did/had done showed better than 12 volts ALL the time?

Unless I knew that 12 volt minimum was the case, then if your Spyder was here in my yard and I was looking into this, I'd take the time to swap in a known good and fully charged battery with at least 350 CCA & 21 A/hr capacity (and not just a new battery off the shelf; but if it's new, then a battery that'd been fully initialised, then charged on a proper charger for at least 8 hours before installation - and actually connect the Spyder battery cables to the terminals too, cos unless they're biiig, then jumper leads often don't carry enough instantaneous juice!) and I'd install it in your Spyder and see if it made any difference. It might well be waste of time, but it's only an hour or so and at least it'd fully exclude that being involved, cos I have seen more than just a few instances where it hasn't been time wasted - and they were all after some dealer &/or another supposed professional who doesn't know Spyders has declared that the battery and charging system is fine and said they can be ruled out!!

Apart from that, maybe if you tell us a bit more about where you are in Northern California (just city/region tho, not your address!) then someone a bit more local to you could suggest a good Spyder tech; otherwise, as Snowbelt sorta suggested, it might be time for a road trip to Vancouver, Washington - if you're up around San Jose or Sacramento, it's only about what, an inch or so on the map?! Can't take more'n a coupla days to drive that far, can it? Or maybe Lamonster or BajaRon... Nup, other side of the Country!

 

[Spyder Hawk]

I do think Snowbelt is more likely on the right path with this, but those 'different codes every time' and the 'as you slow down it gets all upset' juuust make me wonder... How certain are you that the load & charge testing you did/had done showed better than 12 volts ALL the time?

Unless I knew that 12 volt minimum was the case, then if your Spyder was here in my yard and I was looking into this, I'd take the time to swap in a known good and fully charged battery with at least 350 CCA & 21 A/hr capacity (and not just a new battery off the shelf; but if it's new, then a battery that'd been fully initialised, then charged on a proper charger for at least 8 hours before installation - and actually connect the Spyder battery cables to the terminals too, cos unless they're biiig, then jumper leads often don't carry enough instantaneous juice!) and I'd install it in your Spyder and see if it made any difference. It might well be waste of time, but it's only an hour or so and at least it'd fully exclude that being involved, cos I have seen more than just a few instances where it hasn't been time wasted - and they were all after some dealer &/or another supposed professional who doesn't know Spyders has declared that the battery and charging system is fine and said they can be ruled out!!

Apart from that, maybe if you tell us a bit more about where you are in Northern California (just city/region tho, not your address!) then someone a bit more local to you could suggest a good Spyder tech; otherwise, as Snowbelt sorta suggested, it might be time for a road trip to Vancouver, Washington - if you're up around San Jose or Sacramento, it's only about what, an inch or so on the map?! Can't take more'n a coupla days to drive that far, can it? Or maybe Lamonster or BajaRon... Nup, other side of the Country!

The battery is not the issue. It was a brand new battery, 600 CCA, that was fully charged before installing it. It brought the voltage up from the one the dealer screwed up but no difference in how it runs. I too have seen Spyder's do some strange things when under powered because of a faulty battery.

I'm in the San Jose area and there are no Can-Am certified techs around here. At least none that work at any reputable dealers. I also do not have a trailer so the bike would have to be transported. The transporting fee would be way too high and if they fixed it I would have to get it from wherever it was. Too many logistical and health problems to take it too far from home base.

I'm disabled, unemployed, and on a very fixed budget. Traveling to Vancouver or further is out of the question unfortunately. Lamonster would be great. Maybe I'll try and email him and see if he has any ideas.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I'm sorry that I can't help more, but I'm over here in Oz, and I've offered what thoughts I've had so far. If someone local can help, maybe they'll post up?

Apart from that, then maybe it's now time for you to start looking for a good Spyder Tech outside of the dealer network? Here in South Oz, our local dealer has been worse than useless for quite some time, has recently gone into administration, had a change of management, and is now apparently becoming even worse than they were previously!! But luckily, we have a very competent Spyder Riding Tech in business locally (running a European Car Specialist workshop) who is not associated with BRP and who is prepared to do all the big jobs on other's Spyders - he does great work, so much so that he's now being referred work by Insurance Company's as their 'Preferred Spyder Repairer' in this area! We also have a local Spyder Community that runs the occasional 'Service Day' or 'Workshop Weekend' gathering, where we all get together and help each other do all those little things that need doing, sharing tools, knowledge, and wrenching skills; and outside of those, some of us regularly take on the 'a little more difficult' wrenching for others who can't for whatever reason (I've got another Spyder here right now getting tires changed, new shocks fitted, & a sway bar upgrade done) often for beer & burgers; so between us all, we generally manage to look after the local Spyder Community's machines fairly well - I wonder if there's anything similar going on over your way? Do you know any other Spyder riders in the area??

Apart from that, calling BajaRon or Lamonster Garages might be a good idea. You might not get to talk to Ron at BajaRon's personally, and probably won't get to talk to Lamont at Lamonster Garage personally either, but if you do call, one of the Staff at either place might be able to shed some more light on your issues, altho you do need to remember that they are in the business of fixing these things, and they might not be able to spend a heap of time on the phone (or email) trying to diagnose your issues remotely - but sure, if there's no-one locally you can find to help, then give them a call - you can only ask.

Good Luck!

 

[Spyder Hawk]

I'm sorry that I can't help more, but I'm over here in Oz, and I've offered what thoughts I've had so far. If someone local can help, maybe they'll post up?

Apart from that, then maybe it's now time for you to start looking for a good Spyder Tech outside of the dealer network? Here in South Oz, our local dealer has been worse than useless for quite some time, has recently gone into administration, had a change of management, and is now apparently becoming even worse than they were previously!! But luckily, we have a very competent Spyder Riding Tech in business locally (running a European Car Specialist workshop) who is not associated with BRP and who is prepared to do all the big jobs on other's Spyders - he does great work, so much so that he's now being referred work by Insurance Company's as their 'Preferred Spyder Repairer' in this area! We also have a local Spyder Community that runs the occasional 'Service Day' or 'Workshop Weekend' gathering, where we all get together and help each other do all those little things that need doing, sharing tools, knowledge, and wrenching skills; and outside of those, some of us regularly take on the 'a little more difficult' wrenching for others who can't for whatever reason (I've got another Spyder here right now getting tires changed, new shocks fitted, & a sway bar upgrade done) often for beer & burgers; so between us all, we generally manage to look after the local Spyder Community's machines fairly well - I wonder if there's anything similar going on over your way? Do you know any other Spyder riders in the area??

Apart from that, calling BajaRon or Lamonster Garages might be a good idea. You might not get to talk to Ron at BajaRon's personally, and probably won't get to talk to Lamont at Lamonster Garage personally either, but if you do call, one of the Staff at either place might be able to shed some more light on your issues, altho you do need to remember that they are in the business of fixing these things, and they might not be able to spend a heap of time on the phone (or email) trying to diagnose your issues remotely - but sure, if there's no-one locally you can find to help, then give them a call - you can only ask.

Good Luck!

Thanks Peter,

Unfortunately I am the one the people in my clubs turn to when something is wrong. We have lots of riders in the Bay Area but none of them seem to be very social. I sent Lamonster an email so we shall see what that nets in a few days. Thank you for the time and effort.