What benefits from Ethanol Free fuel & other questions?

[SpyderWalter]

I am not tech motor savvy but enjoy riding my 2014 RT. I recently moved to Central Florida and found a local station that offers an Ethanol Free option. I had long heard that this fuel was far superior to other options but do not now the technical reason.

So I started buying E-Free fuel exclusively. Sample tests did not show any significant improved MPG. What I did notice was a steady reduction in (and eventual elimination) of what I call the gurgle or rattle I always experienced at acceleration. It feels and sounds like it is deep in the engine and was so common I thought it was just a standard operating feature. But I no longer experience it. Is that possible? What other benefits come from using E-Free fuel? Is it better to have a higher octane than E-Free? The E-Free offered at my gas station is higher than regular but lower than the premium grades. Which is better?

Thanks...
Walter

 

[FlyBoy2121]

I Guys
The only thing that matters is that there is no more than 10% ethanol.

FlyBoy2121 :thumbup:

 

[BajaRon]

There are advantages to using non ethanol fuel.

Ethanol is a water attractant. Any moisture in the atmosphere is absorbed by the ethanol like a sponge. This not only reduces available energy. But can create other issues if the fuel is left unused for extended lengths of time. As in over winter storage.

Ethanol fuel deteriorates more quickly than straight gasoline.

Ethanol provides about 10% less energy than does straight gasoline.

But I am not a fan of ethanol fuel for another reason. Ethanol actually takes more petroleum and costs more to produce than straight gasoline. The reason ethanol fuel is less expensive at the pump is that the government subsidizes it. There is no subsidy for straight gasoline. However, we all know where subsidies come from. So, in essence. We are paying more for ethanol fuel, using more petroleum and getting less power than if we were still using straight gasoline. Just not at the pump.

 

[pidjones]

The advantages are great for carbureted engines, and that is all that mine see. Fuel economy is the main one for fuel injected engines as long as they don't set unused fo 6 months straight.

 

[Wmoater]

As Pidjones said above, I use ethanol free in my portable generators “all the time.” Honda 2000 and 3000. I use it in my weed wacker, chainsaw, push lawnmower, log splitter and edger “all the time”. I ALWAYS put the last 2-3 tanks of the year in ethanol free in the spyder, jet skis, SXS and riding lawnmower for winter storage. I put it in snowmobile for summer storage. Therefore over the long winter or summer it has pure gas and sea foam mixed in if it is sitting. In the spring I burn that tank up and put 10% till usually August or so again and repeat.

 

[BertRemington]

Gurge or rattle a concern

Walter -- this is a concern:

What I did notice was a steady reduction in (and eventual elimination) of what I call the gurgle or rattle I always experienced at acceleration. It feels and sounds like it is deep in the engine and was so common I thought it was just a standard operating feature. But I no longer experience it. Is that possible?

The concern is whether your knock sensor is working properly.

The knock sensor allows the engine to accommodate a variety of fuel grades and qualities by advancing or retarding the spark as appropriate and other measures.

Before you moved to Central Florida, what octane fuel did you use? And do you remember ethanol content?

Is it possible you changed riding styles (eg, more freeway time, keeping RPM at 3,500 and above)? And was there an elevation change?

Besides the knock sensor, there's the possibility of carbon buildup that the ethanol-free fuel reduced.

And after 8 years of apparently trouble-free riding there's the most likely possibility of no concern whatsoever.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

One of the best arguments for using ethanol is that it is an octane booster that is environmentally friendly and non toxic. The other previously commonly used octane booster, MTBE, is extremely toxic.

Here is a reasonably well balanced pro and con discussion of ethanol in gasoline. https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain

 

[Baron14y]

One of the best arguments for using ethanol is that it is an octane booster that is environmentally friendly and non toxic. The other previously commonly used octane booster, MTBE, is extremely toxic.

Here is a reasonably well balanced pro and con discussion of ethanol in gasoline. https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain

The discussion begs a couple of questions.

1. Since base gasoline is 87 octane, and alcohol increases octane being 100, wouldn't 10% alcohol increase the octane? Yet, it is shown on the pump as still 87 octane.
2. The higher octanes shown at the pump...do they contain more alcohol thereby raising the octane?

opcorn:

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The discussion begs a couple of questions.

1. Since base gasoline is 87 octane, and alcohol increases octane being 100, wouldn't 10% alcohol increase the octane? Yet, it is shown on the pump as still 87 octane.
2. The higher octanes shown at the pump...do they contain more alcohol thereby raising the octane?

opcorn:

I did not find exact information as to what the octane rating of gasoline is as distilled from crude oil, but it appears to be less than 85. Keep in mind in high elevation parts of the US regular gas is as low as 85 octane.

From what I find from a Google search is this. Surprise, surprise, the oil companies are screwing us! Oh, right, that's old news!

Because ethanol raises the octane number of gasoline, and refiners don't want to give consumers something for nothing, the octane rating of blendstocks used for formulating E10 and E15 have been reduced so that the final product has an octane rating close to what we, the population, are historically accustomed to seeing at the pump. If the refiners had not down rated the blendstocks we would have seen normal regular gasoline octane ratings move up from a range of 85 to 87 to something like 90 to 92.

But the primary reason we see ethanol in gasoline is because of the Renewable Fuel Standard of 2005. It requires the US gasoline supply to consist of 22 billion gallons of renewable fuel by 2022. The Standard also requires each reformulated replacement fuel to have lower green house gases than the fuel it replaces. How well the Standard is being met is a matter of debate. The renewable fuel requirement came about in an attempt to reduce our net oil imports, something almost everyone agrees needs to be done.

 

[SpyderWalter]

Walter -- this is a concern:

The concern is whether your knock sensor is working properly.

The knock sensor allows the engine to accommodate a variety of fuel grades and qualities by advancing or retarding the spark as appropriate and other measures.

Before you moved to Central Florida, what octane fuel did you use? And do you remember ethanol content?

Is it possible you changed riding styles (eg, more freeway time, keeping RPM at 3,500 and above)? And was there an elevation change?

Besides the knock sensor, there's the possibility of carbon buildup that the ethanol-free fuel reduced.

And after 8 years of apparently trouble-free riding there's the most likely possibility of no concern whatsoever.

Bert:
Thanks for the insight. Previously I always opted for the highest octane at the pump and never showed more than 10% ethanol. Elevation change is minor as slightly upstate from NYC was never very high. Of course fewer twisties here in Florida but little change in riding habits. However I have more opportunities to ride now. The carbon buildup is my bet as it was a remarkably steady and smooth elimination of the 'gurgle.' Very helpful. Thanks...

 

[BajaRon]

Bert:
Thanks for the insight. Previously I always opted for the highest octane at the pump and never showed more than 10% ethanol. Elevation change is minor as slightly upstate from NYC was never very high. Of course fewer twisties here in Florida but little change in riding habits. However I have more opportunities to ride now. The carbon buildup is my bet as it was a remarkably steady and smooth elimination of the 'gurgle.' Very helpful. Thanks...

Carbon buildup is usually a result of starting the engine and letting it idle. Very bad way to go. It is always best to start the engine and drive. Take it easy until the coolant reaches operating temperature. Which on a Spyder doesn't take long. I've know people who will start their vehicle, then go in and make a cup of coffee to let it warm up at idle. They take years and many miles off the life of the engine with that approach. Not only does it encourage the buildup of carbon deposits on the upper cylinder components. It will also greatly increase contamination of your oil.

 

[RICZ]

Carbon buildup is usually a result of starting the engine and letting it idle. Very bad way to go. It is always best to start the engine and drive. Take it easy until the coolant reaches operating temperature. Which on a Spyder doesn't take long. I've know people who will start their vehicle, then go in and make a cup of coffee to let it warm up at idle. They take years and many miles off the life of the engine with that approach. Not only does it encourage the buildup of carbon deposits on the upper cylinder components. It will also greatly increase contamination of your oil.

Ron....Would letting it warm while donning gear (boots, jacket, helmet) be a good thing or not?

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Ron....Would letting it warm while donning gear (boots, jacket, helmet) be a good thing or not?

I'm sure He will answer, however my procedure gear etc. takes about ONE min. , 30 seconds of which has the motor running. Besides the carbon issue ... it's wastes gas un-necessarily when you idle any gas/diesel engine ..... jmho .... Mike :thumbup:

 

[Knizar]

RICZ, I'm sure that a couple of minutes of letting it idle isn't hurting anything, prolonged periods is not good. I certainly do not shut mine down at red stop lights! ....:thumbup:.....Bill

 

[RICZ]

RICZ, I'm sure that a couple of minutes of letting it idle isn't hurting anything, prolonged periods is not good. I certainly do not shut mine down at red stop lights! ....:thumbup:.....Bill

Yes, stoplights. We have some where I learned to bring a sack lunch. We have a transportation bureau that hates cars and does all they can to make driving here a PITA.

 

[redrazor]

One of the best arguments for using ethanol is that it is an octane booster that is environmentally friendly and non toxic. The other previously commonly used octane booster, MTBE, is extremely toxic.

Here is a reasonably well balanced pro and con discussion of ethanol in gasoline. https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain

::dontknow:You might want to read this VERY pertinent/recent article about how BAD ethanol really is!!?? :

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/

 

[BajaRon]

Ron....Would letting it warm while donning gear (boots, jacket, helmet) be a good thing or not?

No. I don't think it is necessary to be that concerned. I try to get away in less than a minute. But I don't rush. I basically get everything on and ready to go before I start the Spyder/Ryker. But if you get away in 60-90 seconds, that's fine. It's more a consistent 3-5 minute or longer cold idle habit that is detrimental. Idling hot for longer periods, though less than ideal, is not nearly as detrimental. I've had to sit at intersections for quite some time, on occasion. And I've been stuck on road construction where it's stop and go a few feet in hot weather. Even that is not as bad as long, cold idle.

Hope this helps.

 

[dondje]

Carbon buildup is usually a result of starting the engine and letting it idle. Very bad way to go. It is always best to start the engine and drive. Take it easy until the coolant reaches operating temperature. Which on a Spyder doesn't take long. I've know people who will start their vehicle, then go in and make a cup of coffee to let it warm up at idle. They take years and many miles off the life of the engine with that approach. Not only does it encourage the buildup of carbon deposits on the upper cylinder components. It will also greatly increase contamination of your oil.

There are also areas of most any engine that do not get properly oiled at idle. Moisture will also not be dissipated until there has been a good bit of time running at full temp. So idling and short trips are the worse for carbon and moisture buildup. I start, turn on the Sena, Put on my gloves, and go doing 5mp down my 700ft drive, then 10mph for the 3/8mi to pavement, then 30-35 to the HWY 3mi away. Buy then things are up to temp. Will also put in neutral at lights where I know I have a long wait, and then vary rpm.

Regards,

Don

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

::dontknow:You might want to read this VERY pertinent/recent article about how BAD ethanol really is!!?? :

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/

I recently posted about this on another Thread ( it was done by the National Academy of Sciences )..... Mike :thumbup:

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

::dontknow:You might want to read this VERY pertinent/recent article about how BAD ethanol really is!!?? :

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/

There are two aspects to the advantages and disadvantages of using ethanol. The article I link to, or one of the other ones I found, did state that the reduction of green house gases from using ethanol was not as good as had been anticipated. This is when you look at the overall impact of all activities related to the production and use of ethanol, which is the focus of the article you link to. The other aspect is the value of ethanol as a chemical additive to gasoline. When you focus on that aspect it is a much more environmentally friendly product than is MTBE, and the long ago abandoned tetraethyl lead, and it is a very effective octane booster at a low dollar cost. In fact, its inherent high octane level is why many race cars are built to run on 100% alcohol. An objective discussion of all the trade-offs is pretty much impossible when short view politicians control the conversation.

Overall impact on the environment from producing and using ANY product is an extremely complicated calculation. Are paper grocery bags better for the environment than plastic bags? When you take into account all of the energy consumption aspects of producing and using each of them, from base raw material all the way to the landfill, I don't know know which is better! I read an article where one researcher argued that in a trip across the state the man in the V-8 Buick has less impact on the environment than does the man riding a bicycle. The typical reaction to that idea is either, "Heresy!!", or "I told you so!"

That's why I argue hydrogen is the best solution to protect the environment, dollar cost not being considered. Use solar power to generate the electricity to disassociate water molecules, then recapture that energy for transportation and the water for the atmosphere by burning or using fuel cells to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen.

As has been said, for every problem there is an answer that neat, simple, easy, ................. and wrong!