Why doesn't BRP design a stronger Anti-roll bar?

[thoasag]

I have read several favorable comments about the benefits of a stronger anti-roll bar. Assuming that they are correct, why doesn't BRP design in a stronger bar? It can't be cost since the difference for them would be pennies. It must be that there are negatives to such a change. So, what are the negatives when a stronger anti-roll bar is installed, specifically for a 2023 RT Sea to Sky?

 

[JayBros]

The engineers at BRP who design the roadsters establish specifications for an "average" rider, or however they categorize such a rider/driver, the same way the automobile industry designs cages. While you may think the difference in cost for an upgraded anti-sway bar is pennies, the financial gurus in both industries strive to keep manufacturing costs to the absolute minimum down to every single nut, bolt, washer, etc. that goes into the manufacture of everything in the industry. The negatives of most any upgraded suspension part in a motor vehicle depend upon how the individual rider/driver operates the machine. If one is an "average" owner/rider/driver that individual may find an upgraded anti-sway bar gives too harsh a ride. In the grand scheme of things, it depends totally what the individual owner wants to achieve from and with a vehicle that rolls off the assembly line with every part the engineers designed for it. How do YOU want the 2023 RT S2S to perform?

 

[Navydad]

Pennies add up. I worked test and QA at a large truck factory and one issue we were seeing consistently was wires rubbing a metal strut behind the dash panels. One of our engineering gurus came up with a small device that solved the problem. It added 5¢ to the cost of a $100,000+ truck. The idea was turned down. We as consumers see all types of improvements that can be made to products, but we as consumers are reluctant to pay more for a product even though it has the improvements we wanted to see. It's all about the $$$$.

 

[OldAge]

Pennies add up. I worked test and QA at a large truck factory and one issue we were seeing consistently was wires rubbing a metal strut behind the dash panels. One of our engineering gurus came up with a small device that solved the problem. It added 5¢ to the cost of a $100,000+ truck. The idea was turned down. We as consumers see all types of improvements that can be made to products, but we as consumers are reluctant to pay more for a product even though it has the improvements we wanted to see. It's all about the $$$$.

So true. I worked in engineering for a major appliance manufacturer . Anytime we could save 5-10 cents on each unit, it became major dollars.

 

[ARtraveler]

I was in the habit of putting "roll bars" on all of my two wheeled motorcycles. I laid two wheelers down a couple times but was always able to jump out of the way. The roll bars did save the bike parts from getting damaged though.

Of my seven Spyders owned, I never once considered any type of a roll bar. If memory serves, I do not recall a Spyder rolling over amd being reported. In my opinion, not needed on a Spyder.

And, :welcome:

 

[thoasag]

I hardly think that installing a slightly thicker steel ani-roll bar is going to beak the bank at BRP. Be that as it may, the point of my question is what are the negatives to installing such a bar?

 

[Peter Aawen]

I hardly think that installing a slightly thicker steel ani-roll bar is going to break the bank at BRP. Be that as it may, the point of my question is what are the negatives to installing such a bar?

That may be your thoughts, but clearly, someone on high at BRP thinks otherwise or we would've seen a change made well before now... :banghead: After all, some owners have only been swapping out the sway bars on these things since about 2008! Just remind me, when was it that Spyders hit the streets??

Mind you, now that there clearly ARE a few upgrade alternatives out there, and those owners who are concerned about it enough are willingly forking out the $$ for them, why WOULD BRP feel the need to make any change - not everyone who buys a Spyder is making the change, but those who feel the need are happily spending their $$ & not pushing BRP to do better, so why should they bother?? :dontknow:

As for the negatives, at its most basic, if you don't ever ride hard enough to feel the need to reduce the Spyder's tendency to lean out while cornering &/or sway & 'bobble around' in turbulence/on rough roads, then upgrading the sway bar is simply a waste of money; but if you DO ride hard enough to be concerned about the amount of lean, &/or want to reduce the sway & 'bobble', then it's your call on spending the $$ :thumbup:

If you want to see some of the more technical concerns, do an Advanced Search on posts by BajaRon with the word 'bar' in them, and settle in for some light reading! There's quite a lot of technical discussion on these bars already here on the Forum, if only you take the time to look! :yes:

 

[thoasag]

Thank you to those who replied. My questions is a simple one. I did not ask for the technical explanations I simply wish to know what negatives would be experienced with a stronger anti-roll bar.

 

[JayBros]

I hardly think that installing a slightly thicker steel ani-roll bar is going to beak the bank at BRP. Be that as it may, the point of my question is what are the negatives to installing such a bar?

Please pardon my inability to express myself without possibly insulting a questioner. If you tell us how you ride and what kind of performance you expect from a 2023 RT STS, then perhaps the corporate experience of many of the forum participants can possibly alert you to what might be a negative experience with a heavier duty, or higher performing anti-sway bar. Here is a personal example from my own experience purchasing my 2014 RT-S almost 10 years ago. At that time BRP had a quite less than acceptable record of correctly aligning Spyders before they came off the production line, and the then best performing anti-sway bar was a third party device by an entrepreneur who was experienced in Spyder suspension systems. From my earlier experience racing open class motocross with aftermarket suspension items and participating in high performance driving school in a premium sports car, I opted to have the dealership do a laser alignment of my Spyder using a third party system and install a heavier duty than OEM anti-sway bar. After I got several hundred miles under my belt I sought a section of local interstate that was five lanes wide with a speed limit of 60 but for one's own safety a rider had to go 70-75 to keep abreast with normal traffic flow and lots of semis hauling along at ticket bait speeds. I successfully came upon two tractor trailers blasting along with an empty lane between them and rode the Spyder up to and between the noses of the two semis where the wind turbulence was the worst it could be. Although I could feel severe turbulence on my upper torso there was not the slightest wavering of the Spyder; it tracked like it was shot from a crossbow. Was what I did dangerous? Absolutely! Would I recommend it to another rider? Absolutely No! But I wanted to know what I could expect from my Spyder if I was pushing it hard. For me there are no negatives to my heavy duty anti-sway bar. YMMV. We don't know what you're looking for in the performance of your Spyder. Good luck!

 

[Peteoz]

I was in the habit of putting "roll bars" on all of my two wheeled motorcycles. I laid two wheelers down a couple times but was always able to jump out of the way. The roll bars did save the bike parts from getting damaged though.

Of my seven Spyders owned, I never once considered any type of a roll bar. If memory serves, I do not recall a Spyder rolling over amd being reported. In my opinion, not needed on a Spyder.

And, :welcome:

Hahaha……you have taken the OP too literally, AR. He has not used the correct descriptor in his heading. I believe he is referring to an anti SWAY bar’, not a ROLL bar.

Pete

 

[BajaRon]

I hardly think that installing a slightly thicker steel ani-roll bar is going to beak the bank at BRP. Be that as it may, the point of my question is what are the negatives to installing such a bar?

A reasonable question. (Removed statement regarding Roll Bar vs. Sway Bar)

Personally, beyond the additional expense and (if you install it yourself, the added labor) I am not aware of any negatives to upgrading the sway bar (or, more accurately, Anti-Sway Bar). A too stiff sway bar can give you a harsher ride, but the correct sway bar will not. The ride and body movement of the vehicle will be more controlled, but in a way that does not adversely affect ride comfort. It is aggressively sprung and valved shocks that tend to give a harsh ride. Some get both sway bar and shock upgrades done at the same time and have no way to know exactly what caused their ride to become harsh.

I agree that it would not cost BRP much at all to increase the strength of their sway bar. And, for the RSS and Ryker, they do make a slightly stronger option. However, to produce a bar strong enough to make a noticeable difference, they would need to upgrade their end links as well because the current plastic composite components are subject to breakage with their current bar. Substantially better end links would most likely be a much bigger cost than upgrading the sway bar.

My speculation as to why, in the last 16 years, BRP has not upgraded their sway bar is also money related, but on a larger scale. The sway bar is just one component of the overall suspension package. All of which is tied into the VSS, which includes several elaborate sensors and computer. This system had to be tested and certified in each country where BRP markets their products. This is a lengthy and, I suspect, extremely expensive process. If BRP makes changes to the suspension which impact the VSS, (which a stronger sway bar does), I believe they would need to go through this certification process again. Which begs the question, is this a negative? I don't think so. An opinion that has been repeated to me by customers more times than I can count. They tell me that they think their Spyder is safer having installed an improved sway bar kit, most noticeably in evasive maneuvers. The VSS is still active and intervenes when needed, just less aggressively and more predictably.

I have included, (below) the link to an FAQ I put together about the sway bar. You can imagine I get a lot of questions about it. I hope this helps.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums...s-about-BajaRon-Sway-Bar-Kits&highlight=ultra

 

[Peteoz]

Thank you to those who replied. My questions is a simple one. I did not ask for the technical explanations I simply wish to know what negatives would be experienced with a stronger anti-roll bar.

Since you only want the bare necessities, Thoasag, there are no negatives per se. A thicker sway bar simply means a more upright, stiffer, cornering experience. It’s a personal thing. Oh, and you will be less impacted by passing trucks on the freeway.
You should stop calling it a roll bar though. A roll bar is something that protects you when you roll your car over.

Pete

 

[thoasag]

In the automobile world it is called an anti-roll bar. This is a much better descriptor since sway and roll are two very different effects. Few vehicles display sway but if they do the anti-roll bar has no effect on it. It does have an effect on the roll which a vehicle experiences whilst turning a bend or corner. There is at least one very definite negative effect from installing a stronger anti-roll bar or bars in four wheeled automobiles. When one wheel encounters a bump or a pothole the anti-sway bar transmits some of the deflection which occurs on the impacted side to the suspension on the other side. This causes the vehicle body to raise or lower more than it would have done with a lesser bar, thus depreciating the ride quality. This is well known and documented in the automobile world. The Spyder is, obviously, different from a four wheeled vehicle and so I asked the question hoping that I could obtain the subjective experience of those who have made this change.

 

[Peteoz]

Thoasag, you really do need to accept that you are on a Spyder site, not a car site. It will help significantly in getting the specific Spyder answers you are after………BajaRon, who is a swaybar specialist, has answered your question in post #11.:thumbup:

Pete

 

[Dasmoetorhead]

Thank you to those who replied. My questions is a simple one. I did not ask for the technical explanations I simply wish to know what negatives would be experienced with a stronger anti-roll bar.

Your wallet will be lighter. I can't imagine any other negative.

 

[bikerbillone]

Oh yes, isn't it always about the money?

 

[BajaRon]

Thoasag, you really do need to accept that you are on a Spyder site, not a car site. It will help significantly in getting the specific Spyder answers you are after………BajaRon, who is a swaybar specialist, has answered your question in post #11.:thumbup:

Pete

To be fair, it can be called an 'Anti-Roll Bar'. Though the tendency is to shorten it to Roll Bar or Sway Bar can muddy the waters. When you shorten Anti-Roll the meaning changes drastically. When you shorten Anti-Sway, the understanding remains the same. It's really not something to argue over. I'm sorry I made that statement and I've removed it.

 

[thoasag]

Thank you BajRon. Your point about multi-continent certification is certainly a plausible explanation of why BRP doesn't upgrade it themselves.

 

[ARtraveler]

Hahaha……you have taken the OP too literally, AR. He has not used the correct descriptor in his heading. I believe he is referring to an anti SWAY bar’, not a ROLL bar.

Pete

Yup! He Got me. I guess I was in the dark on that one. I never put a "sway" bar on any of my 7 spyders. I know Baja Ron has a good one, but I let it go. :yes: :yes:

I leave the post for all to have a laugh on me. :2thumbs:

 

[Woodenfish]

The Spyder is Canadian. Their highway speeds are much lower there than the USA. I found it absolutely miserable driving in Canada. Maybe that is why? ��