Clutch Fluid Issue

[Bob Denman]

Vacuum bleeding...
We used to use a turkey baster and some fuel line.... (Best wait until after Thursday though! :yikes:
For bleeding brakes; we'd squeeze the bulb on the baster until it cried for mercy, get the fuel line over the bleed valve and then crack the valve while releasing the bulb...
DO NOT forget to keep the fluid reservoir full! :shocked::gaah:
Had to learn this trick because the brakes on early Plaris ATVs would get so much air in the lines that you couldn't get any pressure built up from squeezing the lever!

 

[arntufun]

From what I've heard, bleeding the brake system on the Spyder is not a pretty sight nor for the faint of heart. Ask Lamont, he's been to the Tech school! Just don't tell him I sent you! :yikes: I'm trying to stay on his good side. Never works for long though! Never have figured out why that is... :dontknow:

Vacuum bleeding...
We used to use a turkey baster and some fuel line.... (Best wait until after Thursday though! :yikes:
For bleeding brakes; we'd squeeze the bulb on the baster until it cried for mercy, get the fuel line over the bleed valve and then crack the valve while releasing the bulb...
DO NOT forget to keep the fluid reservoir full! :shocked::gaah:
Had to learn this trick because the brakes on early Plaris ATVs would get so much air in the lines that you couldn't get any pressure built up from squeezing the lever!

Ok, now I'm really confused........ What does bleeding the brakes have to do with bleeding the clutch ??? I thought the brake fluid resevour was under the seat. :dontknow:

 

[Bob Denman]

Not a dang thing. I might have simply taken something that I thought I read out of context... pps:

In theory; it shouldn't matter what's being bled...

 

[Blue Star]

Ok, now I'm really confused........ What does bleeding the brakes have to do with bleeding the clutch ??? I thought the brake fluid resevour was under the seat. :dontknow:

Arntufun, the clutch on the spyder uses brake fluid. Don't ask me why, as I don't know.

 

[arntufun]

Ok, after another two calls to the dealer, I gave up on them and contacted the warranty company myself. This item is considered a wear item and is not covered.

I should have known better and called myself in the first place to avoid confirming my opinion's of service depts and raising my blood pressure.

 

[NancysToy]

Do you have to have a special tool to do this vaacuum bleeding ?? How would one go about doing this ??

To bleed a master cylinder from the top, you do need some special tools...a vacuum pump, a special top/plate to fit the master cylinder, and a feed reservoir for the slave cylinder end. It is very effective, though, because the master cylinder is higher than the slave clinder, and the air bubbles go upward, so the bleeding is very thorough. Please note, however, that this is not the procedure in the BRP manual, so it is certainly not required.

The shop manual calls for either manual bleeding, or vacuum bleeding from the engine end. If you vacuum bleed you will need a vacuum bleeding kit with a pump and bleeding reservoir. They are available online and from many auto parts stores. For manual bleeding, it help to have two people, one to squeeze the lever, and one to work the bleeder valve.

 

[BajaRon]

Ok, now I'm really confused........ What does bleeding the brakes have to do with bleeding the clutch ??? I thought the brake fluid resevour was under the seat. :dontknow:

Oh crud!! Brain fade! Forget what I said about the brakes (though accurate, it does not apply). The clutch should be a no brainer and easily done.

 

[arntufun]

Thanks so much for your help guys. You are awesome. :thumbup:

 

[shakin_jake]

If you can change the oil on your Spyder than you will be able to rebuild your clutch master cylinder. Only special tool involved is a pair of snap ring pliers (AKA circlip pliers if you read a lot of Haynes manuals= The snap ring is used to hold the ppiston in the bore which is always under pressure due to a spring to keep it in place...but you first want to drain the hydraulic fluid from the system (IMO) so when you remove the master cyclinder...you do not mistakenly get any fluid on your paint. I'll say upfront going in, I do not own a Spyder so I'm not sure what BRP specs for hydraulic fluid. My current steed's (KTM 950 Adventure) hydraulic clutch uses mineral oil which is not a paint nusance. Anyways, drain your system first to relieve pressure then undo the banjo fitting at the master cyldiner and remove this component from the handlebar. Take a look at the crush washers used on the banjo fitting...are they copper?...if so you can anneal them to re-use

copper will deform under heat (get it cherry red) then drop[ it in water. Presto, good as new, but if the factory used aluminum crush washers, make sure you buy new ones so when you put it back together, there will be no leakage

Anyways, I've been rebuilding clutch master and slave cyclinders since my days driving MGB's, IIRC, it was an MGB clutch master cylinder I first rebuilt but they're all the same...piston in the bore, the rubber seals eventually leak requiring renewal and that siad, I'd imagine your BRP dealer has a part number for new rubber piston seals. Some bores use two, others only one but a seal kit may have a new dust cover

I always found it useful to use new hydraulic fluid to be used as a lubricant when assembling the new rubber seal to the cylinder and also use the fluid carefully ibnserting the piston back into the bore, being careful not to rip the new seal when inserting hte piston assembly into the bore. When I did a fluid flush on my KTM's hydraulic clutch circuit (clutch action was doggy), the PO had a shop install a new Evoluzione clutch slave cylinder so I rang them up (951-639-0967) to have then send me a new seal for their cylinder, in the event the one in the slave was bad but I also had them send me one of their hydraulic bleedeer bottles they sold for a few dollars, this one-

this little magnetized evac bottle works a charm...since it's magnetic, you can apply it right on the motor where the slave is, slip the tubing onto your slave nipple and if you have the reach, you can pumpm the master cylinder lever with one hand then use a wrench on the niopple to bleed it and the fluid purges into this bottle. Simply brilliant

Anyways, this isn't a bad job to have to do. If you have all of the parts you'll need in front of you with your Spyder's panels off ready to have at it, it shouldn't take you more than an hour start to finish


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[Bob Denman]

:thumbup::clap:

 

[arntufun]

Thank you Shakin Jake ! :thumbup:

 

[Bob Denman]

He DID make it almost sound easy; didn't he? :clap:

 

[Rayelljay]

This type of thing is easy and fun...just be careful and clean...you'll probably end up thinking "...what the hell was I worried about."

 

[shakin_jake]

I did a ride demo on a 2011 RSS at the St Augustine Fla. Can Am dealer Friday. While there I asked the parts counter person about a seal kit for the clutch master cylinder. The counter person could not find a seal kit or individual seals for this master cyclinder in the BRP parts fische system, but retrieved the part # mentioned earlier in this thread for a complete unit for $99. I didn't persue it any forther than that but if I were you I would contact a knowledgable Can Am parts/counter person (Cowtown seems popular around these parts) and see what they had to say about this. Seems odd to me that this BRP component isn't user serviceable. Further investigation seems appropriate in that why spend $100 if you can repair it for much less

I know from reading the ADV forum threads (orange crush) pertaining to the KTM bike I have now, it's fairly common for the clutch master cyclinder to leak. The PO had a shop rebuild his at the time they also replaced the OEM clutch slave cylinder with the Evoluzione piece. That Evoluzione clutch slave was a common upgrade and someone else makes an after market clutch slave cylinder for that bike (can't remember who off hand). In fact, there were enough dissatisfied KTM 950/990 A owners that had problems with the clutch master cylinder leaking, many went to an after market master cylinder, with some claiming the oe clutch master cylinder bores were oval and couldn't get them to stop leaking with new seal kits. Knock on wood mine's fine but I found it odd yet accepted that the after market made a better slave cylinder. I bought a Ducati desmo due new in 95'. They were famous for the clutch slave needing rebuilding yearly. The heat from the air-cooled motor would wreak havoc on the rubber o-ring used for the slave piston seal so I kept several on hand and would rebuild yearly as matter of course, and it's not a bad job...drain the system (bleed off pressure), remove two fasteners and the slave is in your hand, circlip (snap ring) on the back of the slave holds the guts in, then it's only a piston, spring and the seal (o-ring)

Honda had a bulletproof clutch master/slave cylinders on their ST 1100. I bought one 3rd hand, a 93' model in early 2001, maybe it was Y2K, it had 20 K miles on it, I put another 70 K miles on it, the PO knew the orignal owner well and gave me the complete history of the bike (clutch hydraulic units were original), and the forum/list serve I hung out on (100 posts a day), this clutch hydraulic system was never an issue, but, it was a Honda, and the ST 1100 Hondas were quite reliable. I recall replacing the clock illumination bulb at 48 K miles. No other part replacement problems when I sold it with 90 K miles on the odo, except for usual maint. items like wheel bearings, steer stem bearings, rear hub puck rubbers. Wait!, I replaced the original oil cooled stator with the upgraded air cooled alternator, only for more juice, but when I had the swing arm off to get at it, the seal for the tranny output shaft had one small oil weep drop in the swing arm...I was sure it wouldn't get worse but who knows?...I wasn't going to put it back together w/o replacing that seal so I did, but it didn't fail...seals will leak, after some time on them

Getting back to your clutch master cylinder seal leak. I would think that seal held up well over the years and would not think it out of the ordinary for it to leak the way it is. And before I forget to mention, I refaced a set of aluminum clutch master cylinder banjo washers once instead of replacing them. I don't advise it. it was the weekend, I had the clutch master off the handlebars (can't remember why now) but it was the weekend and couldn't get new ones so I sanded them down to reface on very fine wet/dry doing figure 8's on both sides til the deformations dissapeared. that said a lot of folks wouldn't bother with annealing copper washers but I have pleanty of propane:joke:, and it doesn't take much to get copper washers red hot= Something else while I'm babbling on about annealing copper washers...they will discolour after getting them hot, looking sort of burgundy pinkish with splotches. I make up a solution of hot water and citric acid to soak the washers in after annealing, and they'll look like a shiny new penny after that and a hot water rinse. I know, OCD all the way

I wanted to make a point about the need to replace the crush washers used on the clutch master hydraulic banjo fitting, and this goes for brake hydrualic crush washers too. Because they're torqued to a spec, the facings on these washers will deform, which they are supposed to do to make a leakproof seal. You never want to reuse these washers w/o replacing them because if you try to re-use them, air will get into the system. That's garunteed. I didn't know if you knew this which is why I'm mentioning it. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that will disassemble a brake or clutch hydraulic system then re-assemble, only to find they have air in the system they can't get rid of...only because they didn't replace the crush washers. And as previously mentioned, if the crush washers are copper, you can anneal and reuse them, but you can't anneal aluminum washers


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[arntufun]

I forgot to update this post. FYI............

When I changed my clutch fluid reservoir I did not need to bleed the clutch system. What I did was

1. Take cover off of reservoir, Loosen clamp and turn upside down to drain the old fluid and replaced the part.
2. Add new brake fluid and leave cover off.
3. Pump clutch serveral times and you will see the air bubbles come out in fluid while you are pumping lever.
4. Continue to pump lever till air bubbles stop (you will feel the clutch get stiff).
5. Replace clutch reservoir cover and ride.

I have nearly 1000 miles since replacing so this works. :thumbup:

 

[Bob Denman]

:thumbup: Glad to hear that you found the system that worked! :thumbup:
So what's next on the update and/or repair list?