Is this the VSS not working? Anyone experienced it before? What came of it?

[Freddy]

Asking for a friend - who has a 2017 F3 SM6 which he bought used a few years ago, done about 48,000km. He told me yesterday that a few days earlier he and his pillion nearly got flipped when taking a right-hand street corner a bit too fast - the right wheel lifted off the ground so far that the left splash guard pictured below scraped on the pavement. He said it's happened to him previously but not with a pillion on. They were both somewhat shaken by the experience. I told him that this should never happen because the VSS should cut in and drop the trike immediately it senses wheel lift and that it should also display VSS warnings on the dash. Alarmingly, he said it did not and that he has never seen it.
:yikes:

In all the years I've been on this forum I've not read of such a concern - only that Nanny can be too intrusive when having a bit of fun, which he wasn't trying to do with his pillion on board.

Anyone had or read of such an experience? If so, what came of it?

 

[Peter Aawen]

He (or the previous owner) hasn't by any chance disabled or otherwise by-passed the Pillion Switch under the pillion seat, has he?? :dontknow:

That can be done fairly readily by something as simple as putting the cap off fly-spray can or maybe a PVC plumbing fitting over the switch so that the weight of a pillion passenger on the seat doesn't trigger the switch & thereby increase the Nanny's sensitivity/bring on earlier intervention, but there are other ways to bypass that switch/sensor that might not be quite so obvious - so that'd be the first thing I'd check; make sure that the switch is active & working as intended/designed! :lecturef_smilie:

However, you (&/or he) shouldn't be too stressed by momentarily lifting a front wheel &/or even scraping the splash guard thing; the individual sensors the Nanny uses to initiate an intervention do sometimes take a bit to get upset and she won't normally get too aggressive in her intervention unless more than one of those sensors is SUDDENLY &/or AGGRESSIVELY triggered. And if that inside wheel was only lifted for a moment or two, not long enough to have slowed its rate of spin down too much and trigger a wheel speed sensor, then it's rotational speed will likely still have been within acceptable parameters; while the 'yaw &/or rolling moment' might not have yet made enough of a rate or angle to trigger any response to that... So just momentarily lifting a wheel during what is otherwise a pretty constant rate turn at a steady speed is not something that's too untoward or even impossible to do without triggering a Nanny intervention, it's just not something most would usually choose to do with a pillion passenger aboard!!

It's generally a combination of turning fairly aggressively and accelerating fairly hard at the same time that gets you lifting a front wheel for long enough for it to change its rate of spin and to trigger a yaw/roll reaction; and once you know it can be done without flipping or even getting near flipping, then if you practice doing it, you can learn to pretty much do it at will; and with further practice you might even be able to keep the wheel up fairly high for quite some distance once you've established the lift - usually achieved simply by maintaining a steady rate turn without touching the brakes, but some riders with a well maintained bike (so no rapid wheel speed slowing once in the air) can hold that wheel up while riding in a straight line for a couple of hundred metres with practice - even going as far as scraping an F3's splash guard the whole time!! Mind you, if you do practice doing this deliberately, the splash guard really doesn't usually take too long to wear away/get torn off, and then you'll never have that particular problem again!

That said, do be aware that it is a fair bit easier to do this 'Spyder Ryder's Salute' by lifting one front wheel if you're riding an RT, altho their higher CoG not only makes it easier to do it on them, but it also does tend to be a whole lot easier to take it too far and if you're lucky, bring on fairly aggressive Nanny intervention sooner... nojoke

 

[Jetfixer]

Everything Peter said above, and also, being a SM6 model, don't forget that popping the clutch while turning will generate a wheelie!!

 

[Freddy]

I had the pillion seat off yesdy while replacing the fuel filter and saw nothing odd. This is the first I've seen or read of splash guard scraping.

On my GS, Nanny is always lurking ready to pounce even without a pillion. Perhaps she is much less sensitive on the F3.

I'll tell the owner to slow down when cornering.

 

[BertRemington]

What exactly did your friend think the VSS was supposed to do? A big hand from the sky pushing him down so all three wheels touched the ground?

Physics don't work that way. The VSS knew what was going on, especially with the SAS and YRS, but wisely did not intervene except maybe ease off the throttle a bit. Nothing else could be done to improve the situation with the actuators available to the VSS. The right wheel was in the air so brake modulation wasn't an option. The left wheel was crabbed hardover so increasing its brake line pressure wasn't an option especially since understeer was likely in effect -- which was a good thing. Increasing rear brake line pressure would only transfer weight to the front left wheel changing understeer to oversteer and likely a wheel-up finale.

The VSS was smarter than your friend who apparently doesn't understand the physics of a 3-wheeler and probably a 4-wheeler either.

BTW there is no wheel lift sensor -- read the service manual.

 

[Freddy]

What exactly did your friend think the VSS was supposed to do? A big hand from the sky pushing him down so all three wheels touched the ground?

Probably. :lecturef_smilie:

 

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

He (or the previous owner) hasn't by any chance disabled or otherwise by-passed the Pillion Switch under the pillion seat, has he?? :dontknow:

That can be done fairly readily by something as simple as putting the cap off fly-spray can or maybe a PVC plumbing fitting over the switch so that the weight of a pillion passenger on the seat doesn't trigger the switch & thereby increase the Nanny's sensitivity/bring on earlier intervention, but there are other ways to bypass that switch/sensor that might not be quite so obvious - so that'd be the first thing I'd check; make sure that the switch is active & working as intended/designed! :lecturef_smilie:

However, you (&/or he) shouldn't be too stressed by momentarily lifting a front wheel &/or even scraping the splash guard thing; the individual sensors the Nanny uses to initiate an intervention do sometimes take a bit to get upset and she won't normally get too aggressive in her intervention unless more than one of those sensors is SUDDENLY &/or AGGRESSIVELY triggered. And if that inside wheel was only lifted for a moment or two, not long enough to have slowed its rate of spin down too much and trigger a wheel speed sensor, then it's rotational speed will likely still have been within acceptable parameters; while the 'yaw &/or rolling moment' might not have yet made enough of a rate or angle to trigger any response to that... So just momentarily lifting a wheel during what is otherwise a pretty constant rate turn at a steady speed is not something that's too untoward or even impossible to do without triggering a Nanny intervention, it's just not something most would usually choose to do with a pillion passenger aboard!!

It's generally a combination of turning fairly aggressively and accelerating fairly hard at the same time that gets you lifting a front wheel for long enough for it to change its rate of spin and to trigger a yaw/roll reaction; and once you know it can be done without flipping or even getting near flipping, then if you practice doing it, you can learn to pretty much do it at will; and with further practice you might even be able to keep the wheel up fairly high for quite some distance once you've established the lift - usually achieved simply by maintaining a steady rate turn without touching the brakes, but some riders with a well maintained bike (so no rapid wheel speed slowing once in the air) can hold that wheel up while riding in a straight line for a couple of hundred metres with practice - even going as far as scraping an F3's splash guard the whole time!! Mind you, if you do practice doing this deliberately, the splash guard really doesn't usually take too long to wear away/get torn off, and then you'll never have that particular problem again!

That said, do be aware that it is a fair bit easier to do this 'Spyder Ryder's Salute' by lifting one front wheel if you're riding an RT, altho their higher CoG not only makes it easier to do it on them, but it also does tend to be a whole lot easier to take it too far and if you're lucky, bring on fairly aggressive Nanny intervention sooner... nojoke

Brings an interesting question, has anyone flipped a Spyder, especially the later 1330cc ones? I haven't heard of anyone doing it except if the trike was in an accident. As for me, I've ridden rather aggressively and never so much as triggered the "nanny" lights let alone lift a wheel.

 

[BajaRon]

The Spyder can be flipped fairly easily in reverse. Which nullifies the stability advantages of a reverse trike. You still have to work at it some. But not nearly as much as when going forward.

 

[Woodaddict]

Brings an interesting question, has anyone flipped a Spyder, especially the later 1330cc ones? I haven't heard of anyone doing it except if the trike was in an accident. As for me, I've ridden rather aggressively and never so much as triggered the "nanny" lights let alone lift a wheel.

You might have triggered it and not known it. It's a flashing lightning bolt icon on screen. You have to look fast, cause it's on screen, then gone

 

[Gwolf]

The nanny does not prevent sudden moves or hitting objects in the road on a curve at high speed from flipping the Spyder over. There is no device hidden under fairing that turns off gravity and centrifugal force if the operator exceeds the universal laws. It can be too late to prevent a flip over or a crash by the time the nanny detects the operator exceeding some very high limits. An object in motion tends to remain in motion, and an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless acted on by an outside force. If you are depending on the nanny to save you and over-estimate the ability of the machine or your own skills by too much, you are going to crash. There is no stupid detector on the nanny.

Newton's First Law of Motion, also known as the law of inertia.

 

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

The nanny does not prevent sudden moves or hitting objects in the road on a curve at high speed from flipping the Spyder over. There is no device hidden under fairing that turns off gravity and centrifugal force if the operator exceeds the universal laws. It can be too late to prevent a flip over or a crash by the time the nanny detects the operator exceeding some very high limits. An object in motion tends to remain in motion, and an object at rest tends to remain at rest unless acted on by an outside force. If you are depending on the nanny to save you and over-estimate the ability of the machine or your own skills by too much, you are going to crash. There is no stupid detector on the nanny.

Newton's First Law of Motion, also known as the law of inertia.

Even if there was a "stupid" detector on the Nanny, it couldn't do anything about it!

 

[Gwolf]

Even if there was a "stupid" detector on the Nanny, it couldn't do anything about it!

Right, the nanny would have to anticipate the stupid move and shut everything down before it was made. The sensors cannot see the future.
The thing is, when people start trusting a computer chip to save them from the universal laws if they break them, somebody is eventually going to go too close to the edge.

 

[TerryTheSpyderRyder]

The Spyder can be flipped fairly easily in reverse. Which nullifies the stability advantages of a reverse trike. You still have to work at it some. But not nearly as much as when going forward.

I'm going to guess, but I'd say in reverse, the Spyder becomes a less stable delta trike. That's why it may be easier to flip it.

 

[Gwolf]

I'm going to guess, but I'd say in reverse, the Spyder becomes a less stable delta trike. That's why it may be easier to flip it.

In reverse it would be even less stable than the traditional trikes with single front wheel steering because the two front wheels on the Spyder would still be doing the steering, and from the back end since it is in reverse. It would be like trying to drive some vehicle with single front wheel drive and dual rear wheel steering. OK at very low speeds, but tricky at any higher speed.

It would be similar to driving a forklift. The large drive wheels and the lift rack in front, and traditional tractor steering in the rear. Sudden turns at any kind of faster speed and it will be laying on its side.

 

[Cobranut]

I disabled the pillion switch, as I didn't like the nanny being so intrusive when riding two-up.
Yes, it is much easier to lift a wheel with a passenger, but I do it regularly solo as well.
It's one of the few fun things the nanny will let you get away with.
I really do wish it would let me get more angle and duration in a drift. As it is, it quickly cuts power and ruins my fun.

 

[Gwolf]

I disabled the pillion switch, as I didn't like the nanny being so intrusive when riding two-up.
Yes, it is much easier to lift a wheel with a passenger, but I do it regularly solo as well.
It's one of the few fun things the nanny will let you get away with.
I really do wish it would let me get more angle and duration in a drift. As it is, it quickly cuts power and ruins my fun.

What mode are you running in? Are you sure the passenger switch under the seat is capped so it can't be depressed? Mine is totally disabled. I can do 180 under full power on dirt. There is never any action from the nanny.

Where the arrow is pointing is the icon that lets you know the traction control is turned off. You also get the warning icon to left of the tach that there is no traction control available. Mine goes into that for sport mode. I got a metal cap off of an electrical box fastened down over the traction control switch under the passenger seat. Got a nylon bag with rain suit and some other light stuff strapped on the passenger seat and the pressure of the straps is enough to make the nanny think there is a 150 pound passenger when there is just a 10 pound nylon bag tied on the seat.

I could do something really stupid and end up in the ditch just like anybody else can. I been riding for about 65 years and don't much like the motorcycle to tell me what I can do and what I can't do. I don't do as much foolishness as when I was younger. Pain is a good teacher. I just don't want some computer chip to keep me from doing a little slide through the corners on a dirt road if I want to. Also don't want the nanny thinking I am hauling a fat woman on the pax seat. When I leave it parked by other bikes in front of the BBQ place the nannies will be gossiping and spreading stories on me.