No More Net Neutrality?

[Easy Rider]

The areas that actually have multiple broadband service providers are actually very few and far between.

Good post.

So.....here's the predicted result:

Regardless of who you get your end user connection from, you will have to choose the "channels" that you want a good connection to, much like you now pick the cable TV channels you want to get.

If your ISP also owns content providers or has deals with some of them, those destinations might come at little extra cost.
Access to "foreign" content providers will cost you more to get a "good" connection to them.
If you don't subscribe, your speed connecting to them might go down to dialup ranges........or they might be blocked completely.

Just like much of what is claimed by the politicians lately, the claim that this will be good for the consumers is JUST ONE BIG FAT LIE.

 

[Bob Denman]

:shocked: Perhaps we should let Al Gore take another run at "re-inventing" it? :dontknow:

 

[UtahPete]

:shocked: Perhaps we should let Al Gore take another run at "re-inventing" it? :dontknow:

Now, now. Let's not turn this partisan.

 

[wyliec]

Good post.

So.....here's the predicted result:

Regardless of who you get your end user connection from, you will have to choose the "channels" that you want a good connection to, much like you now pick the cable TV channels you want to get.

If your ISP also owns content providers or has deals with some of them, those destinations might come at little extra cost.
Access to "foreign" content providers will cost you more to get a "good" connection to them.
If you don't subscribe, your speed connecting to them might go down to dialup ranges........or they might be blocked completely.

Just like much of what is claimed by the politicians lately, the claim that this will be good for the consumers is JUST ONE BIG FAT LIE.

First, I like your post; so, don't think I'm criticizing. I have a VPN, which prevents third parties (including my internet provider) from knowing where I am on the internet, and blocking me from a site. Also, it stops the web browser that I'm using from blocking me. VPN's aren't free, and some are better than others. I have a VPN because I have an android tv box, and I use Kodi. Kodi is legal, but some of the apps used are on the fringe of being illegal. I've checked my internet speed with and without the VPN, and it is typically the same, at specific times of the day based on traffic.

 

[Bob Denman]

Now, now. Let's not turn this partisan.

Didn't he say that he invented it? :dontknow:
If he did: I think that we should let him fix it.

 

[UtahPete]

Didn't he say that he invented it? :dontknow: If he did: I think that we should let him fix it.

Bob, here's an explanation for why you fell for that fake news.

https://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
Despite the multitudinous derisive references to the supposed quote that continue to be proffered even today, former U.S. vice president Al Gore never claimed that he “invented” the Internet, nor did he say anything that could reasonably be interpreted that way.

The legend arose from critics and pundits who plucked a relatively credible statement Gore made during the course of an interview, altered its wording, and stripped it of context to make it seem a ridiculously self-serving falsehood. The “Al Gore claimed he ‘invented’ the Internet” put-downs were misleading distortions that originated wjth a campaign interview conducted by Wolf Blitzer on CNN’s “Late Edition” program on 9 March 1999. (Gore, then the sitting Vice President, was seeking the 2000 Democratic presidential nomination.)

When asked to describe what distinguished him from his challenger for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gore replied (in part):

During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.
​

In context, Gore’s response (which employed the word “created,” not “invented”) was clear in meaning: the vice president was not claiming that he “invented” the Internet in the sense of having designed or implemented it, but rather that he was one of the visionaries responsible for helping to bring it into being by fostering its development in an economic and legislative sense

 

[Easy Rider]

I have a VPN, which prevents third parties (including my internet provider) from knowing where I am on the internet,

No that's not exactly true.
The ISP that provides the physical path to your home ALWAYS has the ability to know who and where you are.
AND they have the right and ability to block your access completely if you spoof in an address that doesn't belong to you.
They are under no obligation to allow "tandem" traffic on a link that you are leasing for home use.

Once you get past their "front door" then the VPN comes into play.

 

[Easy Rider]

Didn't he say that he invented it? :dontknow:
If he did: I think that we should let him fix it.

He did fix it.
There is nothing wrong with it now.
Others are trying to twist it around for their own gains.
(Nothing new there.)

 

[UtahPete]

He did fix it.
There is nothing wrong with it now.
Others are trying to twist it around for their own gains.
(Nothing new there.)

:agree:

 

[RinconRyder]

No that's not exactly true.
The ISP that provides the physical path to your home ALWAYS has the ability to know who and where you are.
AND they have the right and ability to block your access completely if you spoof in an address that doesn't belong to you.
They are under no obligation to allow "tandem" traffic on a link that you are leasing for home use.

Once you get past their "front door" then the VPN comes into play.

And I will add a little bit more information.....

The IP addresses of VPN providers are well known so anyone you are trying to "hide" from knows whether or not you are using a VPN. Some sites don't care where you come from and others do. Try using your VPN to log into your bank or financial institution and you probably won't be allowed in. They do not like unknown links trying to gain access. Others, like Netflix, may or may not allow a VPN IP to connect to their service.

Because your ISP has to know your physical address to assign service it always has to know where you live (electronically speaking) - just like a landline telephone. Theoretically, your ISP doesn't care who you connect to on the WWW so it allows all traffic to go both ways BUT it doesn't have to and could block certain IP addresses (including VPN's). If there is some perceived legal reason an entity needs to know who you are and they know which ISP to contact (which isn't difficult to figure out due to the limited number of ISP's in any geography) they can submit a request and your ISP will identify you. This is typically used by licensing organizations to identify movie or music pirates.

 

[wyliec]

No that's not exactly true.
The ISP that provides the physical path to your home ALWAYS has the ability to know who and where you are.
AND they have the right and ability to block your access completely if you spoof in an address that doesn't belong to you.
They are under no obligation to allow "tandem" traffic on a link that you are leasing for home use.

Once you get past their "front door" then the VPN comes into play.

Here's one of many that disagree:

https://buffered.com/faq/isp-see-connected-vpn/

I'm sure you may find a site that agrees with what you say. But, I'll continue on with the VPN. The link I provided is not the VPN that I use.

 

[wyliec]

Try using your VPN to log into your bank or financial institution and you probably won't be allowed in. They do not like unknown links trying to gain access.

I know that my banking institution won't let me on the site when my VPN is on; I wouldn't want it any other way. Also, when I'm traveling, and I try to get on my banking site, while at a hotel, I can't automatically get on because the hotel's IP address is different then the one the bank has on file for me. So, the bank sends a text message to the phone number I have on file with them, and I respond, and they let me on.

To me, the above means that the bank doesn't recognize the IP address, not that it's a VPN. As far as I know, the VPN just changes the IP address.

I have verizon as my internet provider, and my IP address that they assigned me is still there even when my VPN is on. However, where I travel to on the internet is under a different IP address.

 

[Bob Denman]

"When asked to describe what distinguished him from his challenger for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gore replied (in part):During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."


Whether he "invented" it; or just "took the initiative in creating it": it sure sounds as if it's now his to fix! :2thumbs:

 

[RinconRyder]

Here's one of many that disagree:

https://buffered.com/faq/isp-see-connected-vpn/

I'm sure you may find a site that agrees with what you say. But, I'll continue on with the VPN. The link I provided is not the VPN that I use.

There are two subjects at play here. The one I was addressing is "can your ISP determine your location and identity" and that remains true. The one in the referenced subject is "can your ISP determine the content of your communication and act upon it" and that is untrue. Virtually all VPN traffic is encrypted. The ISP acts as a transport only and since they don't have the encryption key they cannot see the plain language content of your packets.

It isn't difficult for them to tell what you are accessing however because the quantity of transmissions will tell them almost as much. Sending and receiving emails does not generate a ton of network traffic. Downloading or watching a movie online does. So they can still see the quantity of your traffic and throttle you back if you exceed their policies. Or they can guess, pretty accurately, whether you are streaming or up/downloading movies. What they don't know is whether you are doing so legally. Hence, when they receive a complaint from a copyright holder that says you may be enfringing the ISP will just pass the notice along and will not take any action.

 

[Easy Rider]

Here's one of many that disagree:

Let me guess: they are a provider of VPN software ??

What I am stating is a simple fact. It has to work that way.
I worked in the industry for 25 years; it is not speculation.

The only way to be completely anonymous is to "steal" service through something like an unsecured WIFI connection.

 

[Easy Rider]

Virtually all VPN traffic is encrypted.

The address and routing information can't be though......or the intermediate routers wouldn't know where to send the packets.

They may not be able to see the CONTENT but they certainly can see the DESTINATION and that is what net neutrality is all about.
Blocking or restricting traffic going to one of your competitors.

 

[jcthorne]

First, I like your post; so, don't think I'm criticizing. I have a VPN, which prevents third parties (including my internet provider) from knowing where I am on the internet, and blocking me from a site. Also, it stops the web browser that I'm using from blocking me. VPN's aren't free, and some are better than others. I have a VPN because I have an android tv box, and I use Kodi. Kodi is legal, but some of the apps used are on the fringe of being illegal. I've checked my internet speed with and without the VPN, and it is typically the same, at specific times of the day based on traffic.

You forget the fact that your ISP CAN see the location of the VPN you are connected to if not the content going through it. VPN servers will be among the first to get throttled.

 

[wyliec]

You forget the fact that your ISP CAN see the location of the VPN you are connected to if not the content going through it. VPN servers will be among the first to get throttled.

RinconRyder is correct in what he stated. My ISP does not know where I've been only that I've been using a VPN, and when my ISP checks they see garbled strings (or bits, or whatever term you want to use). The VPN goes thru a number different routers when I'm sending out or receiving, when my VPN is activated. My IP address (home address) is still on my computer for my ISP to see. You and others can argue what you want. Why does AT&T offer VPN services, if they don't work? It's rhetorical; you don't need to answer b/c I know this is going no where.

 

[Easy Rider]

Why does AT&T offer VPN services, if they don't work? It's rhetorical; you don't need to answer b/c I know this is going no where.

They DO work; just not for EVERYTHING.

Anyone using one needs to know the limitations or you could work yourself into a hole.

If you are not listening and paying attention.......it is going nowhere for YOU.
Others might find it useful though.

 

[jcthorne]

A VPN establishes an encrypted link between YOU and the VPN server. Those two end points are easily seen by your ISP as the network traffic is sent and received between those two IP addresses. What they cannot see is the traffic moving between them or where it goes after it gets to the VPN. So if you use a VPN to access Netflix for example, your ISP CAN see a connection between YOU and the VPN but has no idea you are watching netflix. A VPN cannot hide its own connection, only the data traveling across it.

As has already been stated, large well known VPN services have well known IP addresses and will be among the first to get throttled. Already happens in areas of the world where VPNs are deemed illegal....like China.