Having a blast, but have you noticed these Spyders Take an Effort To Ride?!

[mecsw500]

So far mine seem to be an improvement in the stock ones I had in my 2021 RT LTD. It might be the extra tread that makes it feel a bit stiffer. The new tread pattern might be the reason it's much better in the wet. I think either the extra tread material is what stops it getting greasy in 100°F temperatures on really hot tarmac. I suspect there is some difference in chemistry though, they just feel different to the touch than the old ones.

I know they are better in the wet as I got caught in a torrential thunderstorm on the infamous Hogback section of Highway 12 in Southern Utah. The no barriers, 9,500 feet up narrow road with thousands of feet drops on both sides and at least an inch of water on it. I was in a hurry to get down as there was lightning all around, hail starting and I'm terrified of heights. I didn't aquaplane once and the rear never broke traction. The originals would have had me very scared indeed.

I've tried the new ones in the canyons back up behind my house, going from 5,000 to 9,500 feet. It's got some good bits and some lousy surface bits. I can definitely go faster now up or down when experimenting riding one up. Could I go faster on car tires/tyres, probably, but not by much I think before I get into lifting wheels and the nanny kicks in. In really tight stuff these new versions don't push the front like the old ones did. I've no idea how the Kanines or V-Rubber are as I've never tried them.

As for the longevity, I'm not really bothered about that so much. The bikes I stopped riding to migrate to the Spyder I was getting 3,000 miles off the back tire/tyre worst case, so anything more than that is a bonus. I'm sure the rear will balloon, perhaps a little less than before, but it will wear like that I'm sure.

I have no idea how either perform on a road covered in rabbits, but I'll defer to you on that. I've only seen the two bunnies that live in the bushes a few yards down behind me. I've not seen any offspring though.

Perhaps another factor is I'm not going as fast as you. I'm at 5,000 feet and up, so I'm already about 15% down on power. At 9,000 feet it's definitely considerably more than that. So I don't get the drive out of corners to arrive that fast at the next one that perhaps you will. I also tend to ride very Dave Moss of "Two Clicks Out" style. Brake, Turn, Power Out. That might suit the tire/tyre better than trail braking deep into the corner for a higher speed at the apex on a wider geometric track. For me, the corners are tight, the straights are either short, or long but steep uphill. We're going up the Mirror Lake Highway next week, and that goes over 10,000 feet and it's a nice road surface. I'll see how that works out. We are also going to do the Alpine Loop with a side run to Cascade Springs which is up there in altitude. It's much cooler up there. I might fight the heat and fit the sway bar tomorrow if the heat backs off a little bit. I'm too old for 95-100F in my garage. If I manage to fit it, I'll see how that works out with the current fitment or whether they start to underwhelm me.

I'm not an ultra fast rider anymore. The arthritis is just too painful to be hanging off and knee down on two wheels. However, I don't hang about and certainly keep up with my two wheel friends. The only place some of the bigger engined Harleys really leave me is on the freeway where 75 to 80 mph is a comfortable touring speed for me. I have a few friends who can leave me behind in the canyons, but they are younger, foolish, and some of them have a death wish I'm sure. Knee dragging on public roads on BMW S1000RR's, then banging off the rev limiter is not my scene any more. I have far fewer days ahead of me than behind me and I would love to be able to reverse that equation, not put a 0 in it.

So, I'll probably put car tires/tyres on it all round when the rear wears out. I've bought a Baja Ron Ultra Sway Bar to fit, but its 100°F in my garage right now so it will have to wait a bit. As for shock upgrades I was thinking perhaps Ikons as Koni Dial-A-Rides always worked well for me years ago.

Now, here in the US tire/tyre size options for R15 wheels are a bit limited. There's no decent 160/55R15 or 225/50R15 exact fitments. I think the closest is 165/60R15 and 215/55R15. Perhaps you have more selection in R15 sizes than we do in the US. The only exact size fitment I have found is in ultra cheap import rubbish and that hardly seems like an upgrade. Anyway, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I'll have to find an independent shop who will fit and balance them as my local dealers won't do that for liability reasons (it's the US after all).

Good luck on the rabbits front.

 

[Peter Aawen]

I doubt we've got any more 'exact fitment' replacement tires here in Oz than you do over there, probably less, what with the smaller market & all! I'd even go so far as to suggest that I feel the lack of other tires labelled with those OEM sizes may have played a fairly significant part of the consideration at BRP back when they were choosing to specify those sizes - ie. It was probably a deliberate choice made at least partially to limit the alternatives available unless owners are prepared to do the research to find 'close &/or similar' sizes that will work instead of simply sticking with the OEM sizing! And I'm pretty sure that overall, we have LESS of a range/selection in R15 sizes than you do in the US, again, due to the smaller market!

But do remember, those sidewall sizes specified by BRP are only 'nominal' anyway, so it's extremely unlikely that any other tire manufacturer will be making/selling tires that are exactly the same size anyway, even if they DO have the same size printed on the sidewall! And btw, even BRP's OEM tires are NOT exactly that size either - they're close, sure, but they're not exactly that size, and there IS some variation in sizes between individual OEM tires too - and they aren't always 'matched' on a Spyder either, especially on the fronts!! As a manufacturer, Kenda have somewhat more of a reputation for having some degree of mismatch in tires wearing the same branding & sizes than many more reputable brands do not accept; and strangely enough, that mismatch in actual sizes vs sidewall sizes can sometimes factor heavily in the handling and ride problems many owners encounter with tires that've come out of a Kenda plant!

Just Sayin'

Ps: The Child Bride & I had visitors over last night, 20 or so people who aren't local and who weren't prepared for the sheer numbers of rabbits they saw/ran over just in the last few kms of their drive here! Much to my disgust, every one of them who actually drove here commented about how suddenly they drove into the 'rabbit plague area' and how hard it then became to avoid running some of the bleedin' critters over, they were on the roads & verges in such numbers! So I briefed them on the 'DO NOT AVOID' method of driving that we prefer here, and then halfway thru our very enjoyable evening (after we'd all largely finished eating), I took them out and demonstrated how easy it is to 'catch and humanely despatch' more than just a few rabbits in a very short space of time on our pitiful remnant of a small front lawn!! I've even hadta start spraying the undersides of all my vehicles with... errm, let's just say 'a releasing agent', so that the guts etc of any rabbits we might encounter whilst driving won't stick quite so much to the underbody components - but I haven't figured out how to keep said guts off all the hot bits, and I guess all the locals have a similar issue - you can tell 'at the first sniff' which car is owned by a local who has recently driven thru this area, cos the odour of cooked rabbit guts is rapidly becoming somewhat over-powering every/anywhere vehicles gather!

 

[mecsw500]

So what brands and sizes do you personally run, or would you run given the choice?

I know back in the UK there are many more options of R15 tires/tyres as many smaller cars were sold there with R15 wheels. I assumed that might be similar in Oz? In the US just about nothing for quite a few years has really had R15 wheels, so the tire options are very sparse, especially in Spyder sizes. Most of the R15 tires/tyres in terms of selection tend to be 195/XXR15 sizes for early Mazda Miatas/MX-5's and in semi slicks for Autocross.

I know the Kenda sizes are nominal. I'm lucky, I seem to have a well matching front set of XPS Kendas on mine. I checked run out and roundness on both and they were spot on which kind of surprised me. They have few balance weights as well, which was even more surprising. I must have got lucky. They were even mounted with the heavy spot marking in the correct position, shock horror.

I think Kenda may have gotten a bit better with their standards since they started producing their UHP performance car tires and Klever truck/SUV/Off Road tires. They seem to get "reasonable performance for decent value for money" type reviews for those. I've seen a couple of vehicles with Klevers mounted in Moab, Utah, the off road center of the universe in the western US at least.

 

[Peter Aawen]

Here in Oz, our tire market is much more like that of the US than that of UK, only a LOT smaller! As a result, we really don't have a great range of tires to suit 15" rims here any longer - we didn't ever have the same number &/or type of small cars as the UK, and the older vehicles that used to run 14 & 15" rims have largely either been 'upgraded' to 16" rims (or bigger! ) or they've been junked! We've got a pretty good range of tires in sizes to suit 16" rims and up, but there's only a few cheapie/budget brand tires around to suit 15" rims available (very few if any in sizes to fit Spyders), only a limited range of more popular sizes available from the big name brands, and it's very difficult to find ANY worthwhile tire with the same nominal sidewall size as the OEM Kendas, regardless of their latest label!! So if a Spyder rider here wants a reliably 'good quality' tire on the OEM rims, there's maybe a half a dozen or so brands to choose from, and last time I checked, none of those carry the nominal OEM size on their sidewall.

Personally, I'm currently running a set of Michelin XMS tires, I have a set of Pirelli's maturing in the shed awaiting my next change (the Michelins are close to 'aging out' rather than 'wearing out'!) but I have run Kumho's (you need to actively and closely manage their pressure to get the best from them) and others before that, and I have also done at least a few thousand km of Spyder testing (both on road and on a test track/skid pan/brake test facility - it does come in handy having studied & worked in the game, often closely with the major tire companies! ) on most of the better quality tires available in a size that reasonably approximates the rolling diameter of the OEM spec tires with various widths & profiles ranging between 155 & 185, 45 & 70 up front; and 195 & 225, 40 & 75 for the rear. And NO, while it's actually 'feasible' and maybe even has some purpose (altho I have no idea what that might be!) I really don't recommend anyone (else... ) should try a 195/75 on the rear of their Spyder... That particular test was one of the least enjoyable tests I've done!

I agree that Kenda appear to have upped their game over the years, but they really were the pits back in the day, as those of us who recall the 2014 & earlier Kendas can attest, so there's been a vast scope for improvement; and their lack of consistent quality control that still allows randomly and poorly manufactured tires to end up on the roads hasn't improved anywhere near enough in my mind!! Buyers are still running into tread and belt separation issues, tires that simply aren't round, that have sidewalls so thin that you can puncture them with your finger, that have tread layers that only vaguely align with the tire's rotation, that cannot be balanced, and more! Heck, I've even seen an XPS branded tire with a 1/2" high bulge stretching diagonally completely across the tread face where the tread layers overlapped unevenly during manufacture! And I won't mention what the bloody dealer said about it!

That said, I really don't think it's just Kenda to blame for this state of affairs either! BRP & their dealers have an appalling record when it comes to letting these things 'slip thru', but it is not stuff that should ever be making it onto the streets, and yet even their latest XPS branded tires on new machines are hitting the roads suffering from the same old problems we saw back when Spyders first hit the market! Less often, sure! Maybe you've been lucky; maybe more buyers are getting lucky than ever before; but hey, that's really not saying too much, and it's certainly not something I'd be boasting about! After all, you can put lipstick on a pig, but...

 

[Snoking1127]

So what brands and sizes do you personally run, or would you run given the choice?

I know back in the UK there are many more options of R15 tires/tyres as many smaller cars were sold there with R15 wheels. I assumed that might be similar in Oz? In the US just about nothing for quite a few years has really had R15 wheels, so the tire options are very sparse, especially in Spyder sizes. Most of the R15 tires/tyres in terms of selection tend to be 195/XXR15 sizes for early Mazda Miatas/MX-5's and in semi slicks for Autocross.

I know the Kenda sizes are nominal. I'm lucky, I seem to have a well matching front set of XPS Kendas on mine. I checked run out and roundness on both and they were spot on which kind of surprised me. They have few balance weights as well, which was even more surprising. I must have got lucky. They were even mounted with the heavy spot marking in the correct position, shock horror.

I think Kenda may have gotten a bit better with their standards since they started producing their UHP performance car tires and Klever truck/SUV/Off Road tires. They seem to get "reasonable performance for decent value for money" type reviews for those. I've seen a couple of vehicles with Klevers mounted in Moab, Utah, the off road center of the universe in the western US at least.

The first front tires I installed on Champaign RT back in winter of 2020-2021 were:

Federal Formoza AZ01​

165/55R15

They quit making that tire which was just as well. Next up were Vredestein 175/55R15's on PPA wheels which held the road even better than the Formoza's. I put the OEM chrome wheels and Formoza's on my in-law's 2014 for him last summer, and over the winter in Arizona, we swapped out the Formozas for Vredestein 165/60R15s and installed a General Altimax on the rear of his Spyder.

 

[LongIsland]

not being able to counter steer makes a big difference

I agree.
Although I never rode until I turned 60, my buddy rode for more than 40 yrs. In 2012 we purchased our first RTLs and began, for me, a whole new adventure. When we stopped and someone would ask about the Spyders, he always answered great riding but he has to "muscle" through the curves. I would always dispute and say I don't have that issue. When we discussed our difference, we decided that his counter-steering for all those years must be the cause of him to "muscle" through the curves.
As an aside, about 15 years before we had Spyders we rented 4-wheeled ATVs to ride on Daytona Beach. I continually had to wait for him as he couldn't ride the ATV straight and blamed it on counter-steering. So, we had precedence that supports the counter-steering component of riding. Oh, eventually he stopped "muscling" around curves and never mentioned it again.

 

[mecsw500]

Here in Oz, our tire market is much more like that of the US than that of UK, only a LOT smaller! As a result, we really don't have a great range of tires to suit 15" rims here any longer - we didn't ever have the same number &/or type of small cars as the UK, and the older vehicles that used to run 14 & 15" rims have largely either been 'upgraded' to 16" rims (or bigger! ) or they've been junked! We've got a pretty good range of tires in sizes to suit 16" rims and up, but there's only a few cheapie/budget brand tires around to suit 15" rims available (very few if any in sizes to fit Spyders), only a limited range of more popular sizes available from the big name brands, and it's very difficult to find ANY worthwhile tire with the same nominal sidewall size as the OEM Kendas, regardless of their latest label!! So if a Spyder rider here wants a reliably 'good quality' tire on the OEM rims, there's maybe a half a dozen or so brands to choose from, and last time I checked, none of those carry the nominal OEM size on their sidewall.

Personally, I'm currently running a set of Michelin XMS tires, I have a set of Pirelli's maturing in the shed awaiting my next change (the Michelins are close to 'aging out' rather than 'wearing out'!) but I have run Kumho's (you need to actively and closely manage their pressure to get the best from them) and others before that, and I have also done at least a few thousand km of Spyder testing (both on road and on a test track/skid pan/brake test facility - it does come in handy having studied & worked in the game, often closely with the major tire companies! ) on most of the better quality tires available in a size that reasonably approximates the rolling diameter of the OEM spec tires with various widths & profiles ranging between 155 & 185, 45 & 70 up front; and 195 & 225, 40 & 75 for the rear. And NO, while it's actually 'feasible' and maybe even has some purpose (altho I have no idea what that might be!) I really don't recommend anyone (else... ) should try a 195/75 on the rear of their Spyder... That particular test was one of the least enjoyable tests I've done!

I agree that Kenda appear to have upped their game over the years, but they really were the pits back in the day, as those of us who recall the 2014 & earlier Kendas can attest, so there's been a vast scope for improvement; and their lack of consistent quality control that still allows randomly and poorly manufactured tires to end up on the roads hasn't improved anywhere near enough in my mind!! Buyers are still running into tread and belt separation issues, tires that simply aren't round, that have sidewalls so thin that you can puncture them with your finger, that have tread layers that only vaguely align with the tire's rotation, that cannot be balanced, and more! Heck, I've even seen an XPS branded tire with a 1/2" high bulge stretching diagonally completely across the tread face where the tread layers overlapped unevenly during manufacture! And I won't mention what the bloody dealer said about it!

That said, I really don't think it's just Kenda to blame for this state of affairs either! BRP & their dealers have an appalling record when it comes to letting these things 'slip thru', but it is not stuff that should ever be making it onto the streets, and yet even their latest XPS branded tires on new machines are hitting the roads suffering from the same old problems we saw back when Spyders first hit the market! Less often, sure! Maybe you've been lucky; maybe more buyers are getting lucky than ever before; but hey, that's really not saying too much, and it's certainly not something I'd be boasting about! After all, you can put lipstick on a pig, but...

I don’t think we have the Michelin XMS tires you do here in the US. The Michelin XMS tire we have here is massive and for dump trucks. They might be useful for destroying the most rabbits per second but there’s no rims that would fit a Spyder.

I think the closest front tire is going to be 165/60R15 for the fronts. There are a couple of brands selling those. I suspect the lack of cars fitting them may lead to them disappearing like all the R15 tires from other brands.

I’ll have to look at what Pirelli offers. I don’t want to go to 16” rims as I like the comfort of a 55 or 60% sidewall on a 165 tire on our somewhat rough roads when you get into the mountains.

I also want the tires to have some kind of all season capability as although it rarely rains here, when it does, it certainly does. It also gets cold in what counts for spring and fall so summer tires won’t get up to safe operating temperatures.

Like you, I suspect car tires may age out before wearing out. There’s a very real fear here in the US that we may be left with only the truly junk budget import no name brand in the future as only a few specific aging cars will use our sizes.

If I hadn’t retired and now don’t have the energy I’d start a tire grey import business from the UK where R15 tires are still reasonably available in a wider variety of brands.

I just hope as Kenda UHP and Klever automotive tires increase in US sales volume, which they are actually doing quite aggressively, they might be forced into improved QA across the range. We live in hope.

Thanks for the information Peter. Much appreciated.