Red Dust of Death Recall???? Front Sprocket Recall - FINALLY....

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Wouldn't the main change be going from a manual to a semi auto transmission? Maybe that has something to do with everything? :dontknow: Just a shot in the dark.

The transmissions are the SAME ( the SE is solenoid activated the manual is your foot ) the wear on the Sprocket has nothing to do with the transmission. ...... Mike :thumbup:

 

[K80Shooter]

The transmissions are the SAME ( the SE is solenoid activated the manual is your foot ) the wear on the Sprocket has nothing to do with the transmission. ...... Mike :thumbup:

Thank you, I didn't know that. :cheers:

 

[SpyderGTL]

:agree: ..... What baffles me is WHY the Sprockets that were used from 08 thru most of 2014 were changed to ones that are now failing at an alarming rate. ....Has the Metallurgy changed ??? .... Has the Paste changed ??? .... has the mounting procedure changed ???? ... BRP knows way more than they are telling us ..... JMHO .... Mike :thumbup:

Same thing really baffles me too. The recall doesn’t cover the entire range of 1330 production, so were there sprocket part number changes before and after the range of the recall? If it were that simple, the fix would be to use the older or newer sprocket part number. I suspect that’s not the case, because that would not require all this time to sort out the proper fix. It wouldn’t surprise me if the root cause isn’t anything more than a quality control problem in one of those three areas you mentioned - sprocket, paste or assembly. My vote is on an assembly quality issue. That could explain why most don’t have a problem and a smaller number do. It could come down to a single person not following the proper assembly procedure, so some percentage of those that they assembled eventually have a problem while those assembled by others don’t. They would need quite a bit of data to determine if the failed units trace back to a particular individual, which means they would likely have to exhaust all of the other potential technical issues ahead of getting that data. Until they had that kind of data, I imagine it would be a hard sell to say that the fix just needs to be a remove and replace per the proper procedure and then all is good.

By the way, my wife’s 2016 F3-T is one of those data points - finally took it in 10 days ago for the initial inspection. The sprocket did have the red dust on it and it failed the inspection. It’s now sitting at the dealer waiting on the replacement sprocket for the “interim” fix with no word as to when they’ll get the sprocket for that fix. That part is really frustrating! I haven’t taken my 2017 F3-L for the initial inspection, but my sprocket doesn’t have the red dust on it, so I’m less concerned about it not passing. The plan was to drop off my Spyder when we pick hers up.

 

[PMK]

Same thing really baffles me too. The recall doesn’t cover the entire range of 1330 production, so were there sprocket part number changes before and after the range of the recall? If it were that simple, the fix would be to use the older or newer sprocket part number. I suspect that’s not the case, because that would not require all this time to sort out the proper fix. It wouldn’t surprise me if the root cause isn’t anything more than a quality control problem in one of those three areas you mentioned - sprocket, paste or assembly. My vote is on an assembly quality issue. That could explain why most don’t have a problem and a smaller number do. It could come down to a single person not following the proper assembly procedure, so some percentage of those that they assembled eventually have a problem while those assembled by others don’t. They would need quite a bit of data to determine if the failed units trace back to a particular individual, which means they would likely have to exhaust all of the other potential technical issues ahead of getting that data. Until they had that kind of data, I imagine it would be a hard sell to say that the fix just needs to be a remove and replace per the proper procedure and then all is good.

By the way, my wife’s 2016 F3-T is one of those data points - finally took it in 10 days ago for the initial inspection. The sprocket did have the red dust on it and it failed the inspection. It’s now sitting at the dealer waiting on the replacement sprocket for the “interim” fix with no word as to when they’ll get the sprocket for that fix. That part is really frustrating! I haven’t taken my 2017 F3-L for the initial inspection, but my sprocket doesn’t have the red dust on it, so I’m less concerned about it not passing. The plan was to drop off my Spyder when we pick hers up.

While always possible this is an assembly line production issue caused by one person not following a procedure, that seems unlikely. Here’s why. There have been posts where an initial failure occurred, similar to what has happened to your wife's Spyder. Those units were repaired outside the walls of the factory's assembly line. When these second, or even third failures occurred on the same Spyder, that lessens the likelihood of an assembly line issue, but leans more towards an improper choice by the engineer for selecting the correct lubricant, or as many believe, a quality or materials issue with the actual part.

 

[Dean8]

Does this include the off road side by sides?

 

[FrogmanDave]

Does this include the off road side by sides?

No it does not.

 

[Wmoater]

Ummm here’s a kicker and its probably legit too. When a recall is issued and the recall is serviced and fixed if that same thing occurs later the owner does not receive another recall service correct? Well atleast with my Ford truck I had a recall on my windows. I never had a problem with the window. They replaced the parts while in service. 2 years later I had the window start acting up and ford would not replace it again since i had the recall done. Well what am I getting at?????????? I was just talking with my dealer and a guy comes in full blast that his front sprocket is making a whining noise now. He had it inspected literally the first day in July. The dealer said he would look at it but since he’s already done the intermittent service BRP might not pay him to check a second time. Technically I believe the dealer is correct. He was going to look into it. Bumb deal if that’s the case. Not sure how this will be handled. Now technically they put a dot of paint on mine and said if it rotates more than 4 degrees where there is another dot then it will be replaced. But that was language under the first visit. Hmmmmmm does the intermittent check only cover one inspection? If BRP doesn’t release a fix till next summer and yours breaks before then after being inspected is it replaced?

 

[PMK]

Ummm here’s a kicker and its probably legit too. When a recall is issued and the recall is serviced and fixed if that same thing occurs later the owner does not receive another recall service correct? Well atleast with my Ford truck I had a recall on my windows. I never had a problem with the window. They replaced the parts while in service. 2 years later I had the window start acting up and ford would not replace it again since i had the recall done. Well what am I getting at?????????? I was just talking with my dealer and a guy comes in full blast that his front sprocket is making a whining noise now. He had it inspected literally the first day in July. The dealer said he would look at it but since he’s already done the intermittent service BRP might not pay him to check a second time. Technically I believe the dealer is correct. He was going to look into it. Bumb deal if that’s the case. Not sure how this will be handled. Now technically they put a dot of paint on mine and said if it rotates more than 4 degrees where there is another dot then it will be replaced. But that was language under the first visit. Hmmmmmm does the intermittent check only cover one inspection? If BRP doesn’t release a fix till next summer and yours breaks before then after being inspected is it replaced?

Very possibly, what you posted is correct, one time interim inspection that was expected to allow the sprocket / pulley to “survive” until this permanent replacement is installed.

Just yesterday, I was discussing with an owner in Arizona, he was taking my advice to remove the pulley himself, inspect, clean and lubricate the splines, then reassemble. In his case, the front pulley was stuck on the splined shaft. He was able to remove the pulley without extra, but minimal fuss.

I explained that the particles created from the splines fretting corrosion were lodged between the gearbox shaft splines and pulley splines. This prevented the pulley from simply sliding off the gearbox shaft. Regarding these interim inspections, this persons pulley would have had a clearance of zero, since the fretting debris removed all clearance and had the pulley stuck to the shaft.

With the pulley removed, after cleaning he could visibly some wear that went along with the “red dust” of particles. For this person, he had no concerns as he installed a new pulley wet with moly paste, a new bolt, and torqued to specs.

We both agreed that unless the pulley is removed from the shaft, followed by cleaning the gearbox shaft splines and pulley splines completely using a toothbrush or similar and solvent, then sliding the clean parts together for rotational freeplay inspection, there is no way to accurately measure the true clearance with the recall inspection method. Granted, a badly worn pulley can be obvious, but a marginal pulley may be incorrectly returned to service.

Hopefully, as one well respected Can Am tech has publicly stated, the worn pulleys are not common.

 

[Wmoater]

Very possibly, what you posted is correct, one time interim inspection that was expected to allow the sprocket / pulley to “survive” until this permanent replacement is installed.

Just yesterday, I was discussing with an owner in Arizona, he was taking my advice to remove the pulley himself, inspect, clean and lubricate the splines, then reassemble. In his case, the front pulley was stuck on the splined shaft. He was able to remove the pulley without extra, but minimal fuss.

I explained that the particles created from the splines fretting corrosion were lodged between the gearbox shaft splines and pulley splines. This prevented the pulley from simply sliding off the gearbox shaft. Regarding these interim inspections, this persons pulley would have had a clearance of zero, since the fretting debris removed all clearance and had the pulley stuck to the shaft.

With the pulley removed, after cleaning he could visibly some wear that went along with the “red dust” of particles. For this person, he had no concerns as he installed a new pulley wet with moly paste, a new bolt, and torqued to specs.

We both agreed that unless the pulley is removed from the shaft, followed by cleaning the gearbox shaft splines and pulley splines completely using a toothbrush or similar and solvent, then sliding the clean parts together for rotational freeplay inspection, there is no way to accurately measure the true clearance with the recall inspection method. Granted, a badly worn pulley can be obvious, but a marginal pulley may be incorrectly returned to service.

Hopefully, as one well respected Can Am tech has publicly stated, the worn pulleys are not common.

That’s exactly what my tech said and did. Remove, clean, test with new sprocket for shaft damage, remolly old sprocket, test and After everything installed with new bolt and etc that’s when he put brilliant blue dot on the new bolt and old sprocket. He said mine did pass but there was some wear but still passed by BRP specs. So if at any point the two dots move more than 4 degrees than it’s replaced AUTOMATICALLY. Mine has moved a small bit and seems to have settled just shy of 3 degrees in 5000 miles. Hasn’t moved since late July. My tech actually recommended removing the sprocket at 28k service even before this recall ever came out. He did exactly what he’s doing now accept no dots at that time. Everyone said I was crazy for asking about this being part of the 28k service back then, but now it seems to be part of it now.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Has anyone collected any data on degree of wear vs. mileage? If there is not an obvious correlation, and the overall limited number of failures, makes the diagnosis of what the root cause is much more mysterious. I wouldn't be surprised if the solution eludes BRP until well into next year.

This could be a case of manufacturing tolerances being well within spec, but not tight enough to prevent fretting in units where the machining approaches the limit of the tolerance. Keep in mind that with this type of product machining process there is no such thing as exact; only close, closer, and damn close!

 

[AeroPilot]

Just got our 16 F3T and 15 RT back from the Sprocket Inspection.

Great time of the year for riding, but since we had other commitments last week, we scheduled the bikes to be inspected and brake fluid flushes while they were in.

Our local dealer, Fremont Motorsports checked both out and both checked good. The service report - "None of the wear signs present, only minimal measured play and bolt torqued properly. Need to measure again within 10K miles per the bulletin if sprocket has not been replaced by then."

Thanks to Devin and Isaac for the service and we're good to go 'til next year with 75 K currently on the RT and 82K on the F3T.

Note: (the F3 T had the original sprocket replaced at 47K. IMHO we have some close tolerance sprockets now, and rollin....)

 

[oldguyinTX]

Wonder of wonders, I actually got two responses from BRP cares regarding the recall. Here are excerpts from both.

(1) Thank you for taking the time to contact BRP with your inquiry regarding the safety recall Front Sprocket.

Please be aware that BRP/Can-Am is offering an interim repair procedure, and it is available at our authorized dealerships since June 30th, 2022. However, BRP supposed to publish when the replacement front sprocket and the repair procedure before August 30th, but BRP was the victim of a cyberattack on August 8th.

Therefore, BRP closed all the systems for protection. Our team continue to make progress in the recovery of our systems and processes, so BRP will announce when they will be available soon.

(2) We currently have all the Front Sprocket on back order due to the material shortage. Also, due to the cyberattack we were victim of, all of our orders are set back. We don't have a delivery date as of yet, once we do have one, our BRP dealerships will be the first to know. Therefore, I encourage you to stay in touch with your dealer.

Looking forward to help out, let me know if you have any other questions, or comments, please feel free to contact us by replying to this email, or you can call us at 1.888.272.9222

Thank you for contacting BRP, Allen, have a nice weekend,

Guess we will have to wait (and wait and wait) and see what actually happens.

 

[jcthorne]

Wonder of wonders, I actually got two responses from BRP cares regarding the recall. Here are excerpts from both.

(1) Thank you for taking the time to contact BRP with your inquiry regarding the safety recall Front Sprocket.

Please be aware that BRP/Can-Am is offering an interim repair procedure, and it is available at our authorized dealerships since June 30th, 2022. However, BRP supposed to publish when the replacement front sprocket and the repair procedure before August 30th, but BRP was the victim of a cyberattack on August 8th.

Therefore, BRP closed all the systems for protection. Our team continue to make progress in the recovery of our systems and processes, so BRP will announce when they will be available soon.

(2) We currently have all the Front Sprocket on back order due to the material shortage. Also, due to the cyberattack we were victim of, all of our orders are set back. We don't have a delivery date as of yet, once we do have one, our BRP dealerships will be the first to know. Therefore, I encourage you to stay in touch with your dealer.

Looking forward to help out, let me know if you have any other questions, or comments, please feel free to contact us by replying to this email, or you can call us at 1.888.272.9222

Thank you for contacting BRP, Allen, have a nice weekend,

Guess we will have to wait (and wait and wait) and see what actually happens.

So 6 weeks and counting since the cyber attack and they are STILL using it as an excuse to not conduct business or fulfill obligations. Nonsense.

 

[troop]

So 6 weeks and counting since the cyber attack and they are STILL using it as an excuse to not conduct business or fulfill obligations. Nonsense.

Yup .. Very sad

 

[K80Shooter]

So 6 weeks and counting since the cyber attack and they are STILL using it as an excuse to not conduct business or fulfill obligations. Nonsense.

And lets not forget about covid................. :spyder2:

 

[Trbayth]

Shawn Smoke's latest video dropped and he says the bulletin with the final sprocket fix was released yesterday. No details yet but apparently it involves a washer on the backside of the sprocket and a new thread sealant.

Parts not expected to be available in the US until mid-November.

 

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Shawn Smoke's latest video dropped and he says the bulletin with the final sprocket fix was released yesterday. No details yet but apparently it involves a washer on the backside of the sprocket and a new thread sealant.

Parts not expected to be available in the US until mid-November.

Looking at the parts diagrams my guess is that some of the sprocket spines were bottoming out on the output shaft splines before the sprocket butted up solid against the larger shaft section. The washer would make sure the sprocket seats hard against the the shaft shoulder. This could be happening due to machining tolerances of a few hundredths of a millimeter.

 

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Looking at the parts diagrams my guess is that some of the sprocket spines were bottoming out on the output shaft splines before the sprocket butted up solid against the larger shaft section. The washer would make sure the sprocket seats hard against the the shaft shoulder. This could be happening due to machining tolerances of a few hundredths of a millimeter.

View attachment 199058

So the problem was ...... BRP STOPPED putting that washer on the back of the Sprocket from late 2014 thru 2022 ????? .... I'm not believing this ......Mike :thumbup:

 

[jcthorne]

I am not believing it either. The sprockets since 2019 are still having the issues. (White sprockets). Had a 2020 F3 in the shop recently covered in red dust. Not subject to the recall...but at least for that owner, still under warranty. Putting a washer behind the sprocket WILL NOT solve spline fretting issue. Although I will admit machining tolerances in that area could be contributing to the problem. But this is no permanent solution.

 

[Wmoater]

Question on this, just thinking out loud. Placing a stainless steel washer against the faced area that is steel where the splines begins will create more area and contact against the sprocket correct? Yes that will make it a tighter fit from the bolt side against the faced area but Isn’t that going to create more surface area contact for rust, crud buildup and contact that will for sure increase more rot to the sprocket over time? Sure if the new sprocket is ceramic coated that coating, not sure if the white ones are, will resist more but ceramic coating when sandwiched between steel allows more breakdown from inside out doesn’t it? If the new white ones are cast then nothing will change but get worse. So isn’t this going to create a more rapid breakdown than we have now? Just thinking out loud not trying to be an engineer. If the put some thread locker goop in there won’t it be forced to break to remove and clean the splines because heaven forbid you heat that area and rap backwards. I’d rather break the sprocket off than pound on that shaft. Not sure I understand the reasoning I guess.

To continue on my confusion then why is the whining, tweeting sound getting louder and louder sounding like a car belt with bad alternator pulley sound coming from the sprocket if it’s now pushed tighter against the faced area. What’s creating the sound? It’s not the fretting it’s the tighter fit isn’t it? Yesterday the road was wet and misted in the morning. On way home my sprocket was super loud. Once it drys out the sound drops. My sprocket was removed and cleaned along with the salt cleaned and tested with new sprocket. Old sprocket passed fine with little wear, Molly put on and it’s still loud compared to when it was at 15k.