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PedalBox and Pedal Commander - what do they do and how do they work?

DickB

Member
I’ve seen a few posts mentioning PedalBox and Pedal Commander. I was curious about how these devices work and what they do, so I did some investigation and made some tests on my Ryker to find out.

I found that while PedalBox and Pedal Commander increase (or decrease) twist grip sensitivity, they do not increase true throttle response, although they give that impression to many.

Throttle response is a measure of how quickly a vehicle's engine can increase its power output in response to a driver's request for acceleration. Or, as Pedal Commander puts it on their website:

“…throttle response is more appropriately referred to as the time speed of increase in levels of power…”

Simply put, time to power.

Note that nowhere in the definition of “throttle response” is there any reference to the amount of effort or the distance required to move an input device to increase power. That is sensitivity, and sensitivity is what these devices change.

A key factor in throttle response is how fast the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and electronic throttle body open the butterfly valve. Can add-on electronics like these devices improve throttle response?

I made throttle response measurements on my 2019 Ryker Rally, explained in detail below.

In the Ryker (and Spyder) throttle-by-wire system (Figure 1), the twist grip sends a Throttle Accelerator Signal (TAS) to the Engine Control Module (ECM, Can Am's term for ECU). The ECM controls a motor in the Throttle Body that operates the throttle butterfly valve. The throttle body sends a Throttle Position Signal (TPS) back to the ECM so that the ECM knows exactly the position of the butterfly valve. By monitoring the TAS and TPS, we can see the relationship between the twist grip position and movement and that of the butterfly valve, the key to throttle response. I did exactly that using an oscilloscope attached to my Ryker Rally 900.

Figure 2 shows the relationship between twist grip and butterfly valve on my Ryker powered on but not running. The blue line is the TAS and the yellow line is the TPS. The TAS varies from .5V at rest to 1.5V fully twisted, and the TPS varies from about .5V to 1.8V. To make this measurement, I twisted the grip fast, held it briefly, then let it snap back to rest. The vertical white dotted lines are measurement cursors, and the delta time is displayed at the lower right corner in orange – 76mS, or less than 1/10 second, to fully twist. This is literally faster than the blink of an eye.

In Figure 3 I've moved a copy of the TPS over the TAS, and adjusted it to the same scale vertically as the TAS. This allows us to better see the actual delay in butterfly response from twist grip, which is the red area. It is less than 50 ms (1/20th second).

Note that when I release the twist grip, it snaps back much faster than I can open it manually – almost instantly. But the butterfly does not close as fast. Why not? The butterfly is operated by an electric motor, which can only spin so fast. The motor also has to overcome inertia in the butterfly valve and the gears that connect the motor to the butterfly valve. Overcoming inertia is why the TPS takes some time to curve upward as the butterfly mechanism goes from zero to maximum speed and downward as it slows back to zero speed fully opened. When up to speed, the maximum rate at which the throttle body butterfly can operate is called the slew rate (shown in orange) and determines the slope of the curve. The Ryker slew rate looks to be about 60mS, which from what I understand is quite good.

If the ECM were limiting throttle response, it could only do so by limiting the speed of the butterfly below the maximum throttle body slew rate.
Can PedalBox or Pedal Commander increase butterfly opening speed and consequently increase throttle response?

To answer that, compare the slopes – the throttle body slew rates – of the leading and trailing edges of the TPS. Note that they are the same, albeit reversed of course. As noted, releasing the twist grip snaps it back faster than the slew rate of the throttle body and the TAS slope is steeper. Also note that the slope of the leading edge of the TAS was the same as the TPS slew rate. If I could twist the grip faster, the butterfly would not open any faster, because it is already moving as fast as is physically possible.

PedalBox and Pedal Commander plug in between the twist grip and the ECM, and alters the TAS. PedalBox and Pedal Commander have charts on their web site that detail operation (Figure 4).

From these charts, we see that for the same rate of twist, these devices will send a steeper slope TAS signal to the ECM, but this can and will not cause the butterfly to open any faster than the throttle body slew rate, which is already being achieved without these devices.

So, while it is technically true that throttle-by-wire exhibits a delay between grip twist and butterfly, and thus throttle response, the delay is very, very small. Also, the delay, and the maximum speed at which the butterfly can open, is determined by the characteristics of the throttle body motor speed and the mass of the moving parts. No electronics can make it go faster than the throttle body slew rate. We see that the Ryker ECM is not adding any delay in butterfly opening over the physical slew rate of the throttle body, but is operating it as fast as is physically possible. The ECM is not contributing to slow throttle response.

Why do many claim improved throttle response and/or acceleration with these devices? Because they do make the twist grip more sensitive, a small twist of the grip with them will open the butterfly more and thus deliver more power than the same small twist without it. This increase in sensitivity is perceived as improved throttle response. But we see that full butterfly opening and full power can be delivered as rapidly as the throttle body can operate without them by twisting more.
The Ryker ECU does limit butterfly opening under certain conditions.

I wanted to see what the butterfly was doing under different Ryker modes. These tests were done with the engine running, under real world conditions, with me fully twisting the grip from a standstill.

Figure 6 is Normal mode. You can see that the butterfly initially fully opens, but within a half second it closes considerably as Traction Control takes over.
In Sport Mode, Figure 7, it stays fully open.

In Eco Mode, note that the butterfly is limited to about 2/3 opening, which is exactly what is stated in the Ryker Operator's Guide. I expected that the ECM would also limit the butterfly slew rate, but it appears not.

Personally, I don’t care to have a very sensitive twist grip. But if that is something you like, that is what these devices do. If you’re looking for true improved throttle response, these devices fall short.
 

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In my opinion, the Ryker is already responsive enough in stock form and does not need or benefit much form this 'upgrade'. Not true of the Spyder where either of these units make a noticable and worthy difference.
 
I had my 2014 RT ECU flashed several years ago, by Monster, and it seems to me to be the best $$ spent on mods yet. What's your take on ECU flashing? Thanks for this explanation!
 
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Personally, I don’t care to have a very sensitive twist grip. But if that is something you like, that is what these devices do. If you’re looking for true improved throttle response, these devices fall short.

I don't understand this statement. A sensitive twist grip and throttle response appear to be one in the same thing. When I take a stock fly-by-wire Spyder and twist the grip to wide open throttle as quickly as I can, there is a great deal of lag in response to my input. You may not notice it if you've never ridden a Spyder with true, unmodified 1 to 1 throttle response. In my job I test ride all kinds of Spyders so this lag is very obvious to me or anyone that has opportunity to ride with and without a throttle modifier. On my 998 (cable operated) I get 100% butterfly opening right away. A much different, and for most, a very rewarding experience.

We've had customers not so sure about installing one of these on their Spyder because of all the back and forth and a lack of consensus as to what they do and how they work. But we will install one and if the customer doesn't like it, we will take it off and there will be no charge. So far, every customer has returned from their test ride with a BIG smile on their face saying they had no idea what they were missing out on. We've not had to remove one yet. But again, we will happily if the customer requests it.

You are correct that the electric motor can only turn so fast. But it's not the lack of motor speed which creates the bottleneck. It's the ECU saying 'I know he wants full throttle, but I don't think he needs it. So, I will give him only what I think is required'. In other words, the butterfly motor has a great deal more potential to open the throttle body quickly than the ECU will allow. (Again, I'm talking Spyder here, not Ryker which comes stock from the factory with very good throttle response. Maybe they had to do this to keep the drive belt from slipping with a lethargic power curve.)

After installing a Pedal Box or Commander unit, you can manage the rate at which the throttle bodies open up to, and even beyond, a 1 to 1 ratio. I don't understand how this can't be called throttle response.

You can make twist grip response too aggressive with these units. With the already great throttle response in the Ryker, it is my opinion that one of these units in that machine is overkill. You've already got all you need from the factory. Sadly, this is not true of the fly-by-wire Spyders. And this is where these units shine.

To answer AbNormy's question. The units discussed in this thread will only bring your 1330 motor to full throttle response potential, which is substantial. They overcome restrictions from the ECU limiting how quickly available power is delivered. The ECU flash will give you an increase in actual horsepower and torque that the Pedal Box or Commander cannot tap while giving you the throttle response features of these other units at the same time. If you want all you can get from a stock motor, the ECU flash is definitely the way to go. Still, you will be surprised at the improvement available with the plug in Pedal or Commander units.
 
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I had my 2014 RT ECU flashed several years ago, by Monster, and it seems to me to be the best $$ spent on mods yet. What's your take on ECU flashing? Thanks for this explanation!

That topic deserves its own thread.

There are quite a few threads already on the Forum about ECU Upgrades & flashing, some even discussing them in a similar way to this thread. So yes, the topic deserves its own thread, but NOT another new thread - just do a bit of searching (enter 'ECU' into the search field; tick the 'Search Titles Only' box in the drop down list; and then submit the search! ;) ) and spend some time reading what's been posted already. :thumbup:
 
There are quite a few threads already on the Forum about ECU Upgrades & flashing, some even discussing them in a similar way to this thread. So yes, the topic deserves its own thread, but NOT another new thread - just do a bit of searching (enter 'ECU' into the search field; tick the 'Search Titles Only' box in the drop down list; and then submit the search! ;) ) and spend some time reading what's been posted already. :thumbup:

You know you're trying to herd cats with this, Peter! :rolleyes:
 
You know you're trying to herd cats with this, Peter! :rolleyes:

True dat! :sour: But it's just like weeding out some of the dodgy 'new member' applicants - there's always gonna be more trying, it's a never ending and seemingly futile task, but if someone doesn't do it, it won't take long before the Forum gets inundated by them, all the legit users get driven away, and the place becomes useless! Only with those dodgy applicants, they have no reason to not try, cos their life is otherwise so pitiful that their main goal is to be a pain & disrupt/destroy places like this! :banghead:

But with current valid members & legit users of the Forum, it's to their benefit not to start up a brand-new thread every time they think of something else about a subject that's already been raised and discussed; it's to their benefit to actually LOOK for and at what's already been posted about a subject; to check out what's already been asked, discussed, and possibly even already answered; and maybe they'll learn something along the way, possibly even answer any other questions they might have/that might arise, cos after all, that's one of the big advantages of Forums like this, it's a continually growing and expanding data base of actual experience and knowledge about our shared interest, BUT IT ONLY WORKS IF the Forum is at least vaguely organised and searchable!:lecturef_smilie:

So not only is it to the benefit of each and every poster to search first and preferably add to existing threads where their question will expand that knowledge/experience database, instead of just starting another thread just cos they haven't asked the same old question yet... but it's also a basic courtesy to all the other members here to at least TRY not to mess the place up by drowning it in repetitions of the same old questions, answers, discussions etc and basically contribute to making the place unusable for everyone else thru their selfishness & laziness! :mad: Even if we are lucky enough to catch most of them before they do a heap of damage, we get enough of the small-minded spam/scam types who actively try doing that anyway, so I'd like to think that most valid members here also think the Forum is valuable enough & helpful enough to them for each of them to make that little bit of extra effort not to actively contribute to its eventual destruction! :shocked:

It might be naive of me; possibly even a futile task, as you've commented (I'm beginning to think that herding cats is likely easier! :p ); but even if it only shows a few that there are some here who appreciate the place and want it to keep going, then I'm all for it!! And if it actually helps keep the place working, all the better - I reckon it's worth giving it a shot, don't you?? :rolleyes:
 
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I don't understand this statement.
Let’s start with the basics.

These devices plug in between the twist grip and the ECM. They alter the TAS. That’s all that they do, and that is all that they can do. They do not alter the ECM in any way. The ECM just sees a TAS; it doesn’t know if that signal is from the twist grip directly or from one of these devices.

The charts on the PedalBox and Pedal Commander are not charting twist grip versus butterfly valve. They are charting twist grip versus TAS. If we take Pedal Commander in City mode as an example, we see that with Pedal Commander the TAS signal at 43% twist is the same as the TAS signal without Pedal Commander at 69% twist. So, the ECM sees exactly the same TAS value at 43% twist with Pedal Commander as it would stock at 69% twist. That is sensitivity. Pedal Commander makes the twist grip more sensitive. You can achieve the same result without Pedal Commander by simply twisting more. Same TAS, same result.

Since the ECM can’t know from where the TAS is coming – stock twist grip or Pedal Commander – the following statement makes no sense:

“They overcome restrictions from the ECU limiting how quickly available power is delivered.”

If I am not correct, please explain how that is possible by altering only the TAS and not the ECM.

We see from my measurements that the Ryker ECM does not limit butterfly opening speed, but opens it as fast as is physically possible. I have not measured a Spyder, but why would Can Am restrict butterfly opening speed in a product that is higher end than the Ryker? Do I need to instrument my Spyder to prove this again?

If this statement is true:

“It's the ECU saying 'I know he wants full throttle, but I don't think he needs it. So, I will give him only what I think is required'.”

some reference other than anecdotal would be appreciated. Also if true, an explanation about how altering TAS only can overcome this alleged ECM behaviour.

Many are interpreting “throttle response” as amount of twist to power. Fine, if that’s what you want to do. But the generally accepted definition is time to power. (Do a search. I didn’t make this up.) You get the same time to power by twisting a little more without PedalBox or Pedal Commander as you do with them. It has to be. The TAS is the same in both cases. The ECM must react the same with the same TAS input – how can it not? True, the extra twist is going to take some time, but remember we are talking about a fraction of a blink of an eye difference. Note also, looking at the Pedal Commander charts, to achieve WOT in either case you must twist 100%. If you twist 100% with or without Pedal Commander or PedalBox, the TAS is the same and the result must be the same.

“After installing a Pedal Box or Commander unit, you can manage the rate at which the throttle bodies open up to, and even beyond, a 1 to 1 ratio.”

No, you cannot. You are managing the amount that TAS increases with rotation of the twist grip. The ECM manages the throttle body butterfly valve based, among many other things, the TAS. You are changing the relationship between twist grip angle and TAS, that is all. The ECM is going to react the same with the same TAS input. How can it not?

Now, addressing my statement:

“Personally, I don’t care to have a very sensitive twist grip.”

Let’s take Pedal Commander in Sport+ mode as an example. At 10% twist, Pedal Commander delivers 83% TAS. That’s crazy. If I want 83% TAS, I’ll twist 83%. If I’m trying to just deliver 40% or 50% TAS – which I do generally when accelerating from a stop – I’d rather have the precision that the stock twist grip offers rather than trying to hit 4% or 5% twist with Pedal Commander in Sport+ mode to get the desired result. That is why I don't care to have a more sensitive twist grip.

BTW, my 2014 Spyder RSS with the 998 engine has throttle by wire, not a cable.
 

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We are approaching this from 2 different directions. And maybe I'm not hearing you right. But it sounds like you're saying that these units can't do what they are doing. There are all kinds of Widgets on the market that are designed to fool an ECU into doing what the owner wants instead of what the programmer wants. From VW's Diesel-gate to these throttle response modifiers. I just installed a gizmo on a friends Honda Crosstour to keep the ECU from dropping cylinders.

I'm not opposed to charts and graphs. They are a wonderful thing. But when you compare actual function, you don't need any technical documentation to know, instantly, the difference is quite amazing.

Bottom line, no one is buying charts & graphs. Most riders don't even care how they do it. They just want to know what difference a particular mod will make to their ride and if it will provide them with what they are looking for. The rest is moot. We have verified that these throttle modifiers do exactly what the customer wants. If they want more, then an ECU flash is the next step up. But most are quite happy with one of these units.

Mine gives me WINGS! ;-)>

Exactly! Happy Riding! :thumbup:
 
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I’ve owned 4 different Spyder’s and by far the best mod for me was adding a Pedal Commander. If I ever buy another it’s the first thing I would do prior to leaving the lot. I’ve got one in my 2023 AT4 now so anything I drive it’s a must have.
 
But it sounds like you're saying that these units can't do what they are doing.
No, I’m not saying that at all. I said up front exactly what these devices do, which is change sensitivity:
“I found that while PedalBox and Pedal Commander increase (or decrease) twist grip sensitivity, they do not increase true throttle response, although they give that impression to many.”

They do exactly that.

But when you compare actual function, you don't need any technical documentation to know, instantly, the difference is quite amazing.
I don’t agree. To compare actual function, and not just perception or feel, you need technical analysis.

They just want to know what difference a particular mod will make to their ride and if it will provide them with what they are looking for.
Exactly why I made my post. I see people inquiring about these devices online, asking what they do, so I attempted to describe exactly what they do and do not do.

A problem as I see it is that the manufacturers are claiming that their devices do more than just change sensitivity. Some of their statements are misleading and some just not true.

PedalBox claims:

“The drive by wire systems does not provide the same performance as it creates a throttle lag from your initial accelerator push.”
As measured, any lag is less than the blink of an eye.

“In other words, the PedalBox eliminates the delay from the throttle pedal to the engine.”
Any delay is due to the ECU and the physical characteristics of the throttle body. No electronics can alter these physical characteristics.

“The "Throttle Response" curve shows the speed at which an engine responds to the driver's pressing of the accelerator.”
The curves show the relationship between twist angle and TAS, not engine response.

"Would I not get the same effect simply by quickly pushing the throttle all the way to the floor?"
“Unfortunately not, the speed of the human foot can never match that of the cars electronics, and by repeatedly hammering the accelerator all the way to the floor can actually cause damage to the throttle cluster and drivetrain."
(I love this one.) Yes, you do get exactly the same TAS and therefore the same result pushing the pedal all the way to the floor or twisting the grip fully with or without PedalBox.

Pedal Commander claims:

“By sending the information to the computer this way, a couple of checks that the engine computer will make, so can be bypassed before sending the signal to open the throttle body.”
This is false. I asked a Pedal Commander representative, repeatedly, exactly what checks are made and how they are bypassed. He evaded and did not answer. Why not? Because it is not true.

“This gives you the ability remap throttle map and speed to eliminate the delay from your accelerator (gas pedal), allowing your engine to respond faster.”
As measured, the Ryker in stock form is responding as fast as is physically possible. No add-on device that alters TAS only can improve this.

“The device then modifies this signal based on your selected settings, eliminating throttle lag and providing a faster throttle response.”
The first half is true, the second not true as the data shows.

“As a result, your gas pedal becomes more sensitive and make your engine more responsive like old school feel.”
The first half is true. Pedal Commander makes your gas pedal or twist grip more sensitive. Full stop.

These devices are not new. I installed and tested a Sprint Booster in my 1999 Mercedes SLK over 20 years ago. It made my accelerator pedal more sensitive. It did not deliver on other claims. I took it out.
 
So in the end, from a standing start 1/4 mile race, does the stock spyder or the PB equipped Spyder win the race?
 
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The F3S already has "sport mode" that gives you a quicker throttle signal response similar to the devices being discussed but also provides other changes from the ECM such as relaxed nanny on rear wheel traction. My SWAG is that both spyders with and without will arrive at the same time depending on which driver got the hole shot. I prefer to use standard mode as I prefer the more linear throttle response. Bottom line is the purchase of this device is strictly up to the owner.

Thanks to DickB for doing the testing and explaining what happens and what doesn't. JMO
 
The F3S already has "sport mode" that gives you a quicker throttle signal response similar to the devices being discussed but also provides other changes from the ECM such as relaxed nanny on rear wheel traction. My SWAG is that both spyders with and without will arrive at the same time depending on which driver got the hole shot. I prefer to use standard mode as I prefer the more linear throttle response. Bottom line is the purchase of this device is strictly up to the owner.

Thanks to DickB for doing the testing and explaining what happens and what doesn't. JMO

I don't think so. The F3s in sport mode disables most of the nanny safeties, but does nothing for the throttle response
 
So in the end, from a standing start 1/4 mile race, does the stock spyder or the PB equipped Spyder win the race ?

I haven't tried it. I'd like to and I will if I get the chance. I would be quite surprised if they both arrived at the same time. Getting full power noticeably sooner has to make a difference. It's similar to a speed shifter which doesn't change the gearing. It just gets you through the gears much faster.
 
I haven't tried it. I'd like to and I will if I get the chance. I would be quite surprised if they both arrived at the same time. Getting full power noticeably sooner has to make a difference. It's similar to a speed shifter which doesn't change the gearing. It just gets you through the gears much faster.

That was my thought also Ron.
 
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