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PedalBox and Pedal Commander - what do they do and how do they work?

The F3S already has "sport mode" that gives you a quicker throttle signal response similar to the devices being discussed but also provides other changes from the ECM such as relaxed nanny on rear wheel traction. JMO
The attached is from the 2022 Spyder F3 Operator's Guide.
 

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Many modern cars have various modes that will modify the relationship between the accelerator pedal and power and/or acceleration.

I read in a Mercedes technical article 20 years ago that they had a dynamic accelerator pedal response. If cruising on the highway for a time, the ECU would soften the accelerator pedal response, making it less sensitive. This would presumably permit finer control to maintain a constant speed. If you performed a more sudden action, such as rapidly accelerating to pass, the response would revert to a more sensitive response.
 
Very interesting thread. I always like seeing emperical data, because personal testimony (even mine) can be so varied since we all perceive things differently, and we are subject to a whole series of biases, something advertisers are all to willing to exploit.

In this case, from reading the replies, I think the issue here is with the definition of "Throttle Response." In one case, it's being used in a technical/mechanical/electronic sense, something that can be demonstrated with data and graphs, and in the other case it's a sensory/viceral/perception sense, how the bike now feels when twisting the throttle with a modifier between the grip and the ECU.

Because the term can be defined in either way, unless a definition of what "Throttle Response" is agreed upon, it can be hard to reconcile the two differing views. Both can be right, while remaining in conflict. I can see the difference in this thread and understand where each person is coming from.

Because we perceive reality based on the inputs of our senses, a change in a sensory input can equate with a change in perceived reality, such as the "feeling" of before and after, levels of power or acceleration. One thing I remember going way back into hot rod days, was how adding a loud muffler or exhaust can make a vehicle "feel" like it has more torque, horsepower, or acceleration. Place that same vehicle in a dyno, and you may discover the exhaust modification actually hurts overall performance. It would be very interesting to me to see a device like this dyno tested, although frankly it would likely be a lot of money spent for little practical return. For the consumer, if an add-on makes a vehicle respond in a more desirable manner, the reality of what it actually does in a technical sense, makes little to no difference. It can be as simple as: "I want the vehicle to do this, or feel this way." If an add-on succeeds in meeting customer demand, then it is a successful product.

I saw the reference to the Sprint Booster, which is what I thought about when I first saw the Pedalbox mentioned in this forum. The Sprint Boosters were also very popular with the Chrysler Crossfire community, of which, I was once a member. I recall very similar threads where a regular member of the forum raced, did a lot of custom performance and tuning work and would offer his analysis on various products, the Sprint Booster being one. He not only tested modifications on a dyno, he had the ability to get into the ECU/software side of things to actually watch what was happening. I always found the threads very interesting. Turns out the Sprint Booster did the same kind of thing as the PedalBox. It changed the rate at which the ECU saw throttle input. The car felt "sportier," even though it didn't change 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, increase top speed, horsepower or torque numbers.
 
Yep, that's what my manual says also. How'd I miss that! I stand corrected. I'll be in sport mode from now on.
That is the classic BRP misprint in manual. I don't have an F3 or a 2020+ model, but from what I have read, only the F3S models have that toggle option way back around 2016- 2018?? Please, can another member help me out? I don't want Dasmo searching and searching trying to find that special power. Like ninja turtle power!!!!
 
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I haven't tried it. I'd like to and I will if I get the chance. I would be quite surprised if they both arrived at the same time. Getting full power noticeably sooner has to make a difference. It's similar to a speed shifter which doesn't change the gearing. It just gets you through the gears much faster.

My friend's RT is stock and mine has the Pedal box. Side by side from a standing start I pull about 3 bike lengths. Then, we EXACTLY match speeds all the way to 90 mph. His bike never recovers the three bike lengths.
I'm with Ron on graphs. I will be getting my RT flashed when the warranty is up. For now, my Pedal box is the best thing since sliced bread. I only use 1/4 throttle travel compared to 3/4. At the end of the day, with older wrists, this vastly improves my ride quality.
Dennis
 
I have the pedal commander on my 2016 F3L and the pedal box on my 2021 RTL. Both of them do a great job. My question is, both of the bikes have the se6 transmission. Do you see the same increase in throttle response on a sm6 transmission bike? Just curious.
 
I have the pedal commander on my 2016 F3L and the pedal box on my 2021 RTL. Both of them do a great job. My question is, both of the bikes have the se6 transmission. Do you see the same increase in throttle response on a sm6 transmission bike? Just curious.

These units don't know what trans you have. The improvement is the same.
 
Getting full power noticeably sooner has to make a difference.

To get full power, with or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, you must twist 100%. Do you agree?

When you twist 100%, the ECM sees the same 100% TAS, with or without a PedalBox or Pedal Commander, do you agree?

With or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, it takes the same amount of time to twist 100%, do you agree?

If the ECM sees the same 100% TAS, with or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, the result in power and acceleration must be the same, do you agree?
 
To get full power, with or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, you must twist 100%. Do you agree?

When you twist 100%, the ECM sees the same 100% TAS, with or without a PedalBox or Pedal Commander, do you agree?

With or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, it takes the same amount of time to twist 100%, do you agree?

If the ECM sees the same 100% TAS, with or without PedalBox or Pedal Commander, the result in power and acceleration must be the same, do you agree?

This approach to a products function has always been a mystery to me. There is an old saying that I think might help in this discussion. "The proof is in the pudding" I don't know where, but there is an error in this logic evidenced by the fact that it doesn't hold true where the rubber meets the road. Not to mention that these companies would be out of business quickly if they did not deliver the goods. People would be posting all over this and every other forum and that would be it. Yet virtually every customer post is positive.

Simply put, a Pedalbox/Commander Spyder is noticeably quicker. You'll know this as soon as you pull out of the parking lot. In fact, it's fun, exhilarating, and pretty much everything the manufacturer promises. With the added bonus that you can dial it in to meet your personal taste for acceleration. I can understand that if this does not appeal to a buyer, they should steer clear of these devices. But if it interests you, by all means, you should check it out. Again, if we install it for you and you don't like it, we'll take it off again, and no charge. We've not had a customer take us up on this offer yet. Which, again, tells you a great deal about the product.

In the final analysis, you can wave your charts and graphs at someone as they pass you by on their modified Spyder. But I doubt it will change their mind. Or the reality that you can't keep up with them.
 
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My friend's RT is stock and mine has the Pedal box. Side by side from a standing start I pull about 3 bike lengths. Then, we EXACTLY match speeds all the way to 90 mph. His bike never recovers the three bike lengths.

Bingo, we have a winner. Same thing I have found playing around with the Car Test app on my phone. Virtually no difference except for the initial feel which makes you think it's going twice as fast.
 
...but there is an error in this logic...
You didn't answer my questions. That's telling.

I'm an engineer - we do like to use data and logic over feel and perception.

I haven't found a box that fits the 998 Spyders; if I did I might test one to further prove my point. But I suspect many would not believe my results anyway.

Maybe someone with one of these boxes would conduct a fair test, twisting 100% with and without the box engaged, and compare results. It would be interesting to do this as a blind test, with the driver not knowing if the box were engaged or not.

These boxes are very popular because they do deliver a satisfying experience to many. No question. A few of us who understand throttle-by-wire and how these boxes work know that we can achieve the same result by simply twisting more. We are in the minority.
 
You didn't answer my questions. That's telling.

I'm an engineer - we do like to use data and logic over feel and perception.

I haven't found a box that fits the 998 Spyders; if I did I might test one to further prove my point. But I suspect many would not believe my results anyway.

Maybe someone with one of these boxes would conduct a fair test, twisting 100% with and without the box engaged, and compare results. It would be interesting to do this as a blind test, with the driver not knowing if the box were engaged or not.

These boxes are very popular because they do deliver a satisfying experience to many. No question. A few of us who understand throttle-by-wire and how these boxes work know that we can achieve the same result by simply twisting more. We are in the minority.

I thought I did answer your question in a meaningful way. When the chart says you're not going faster, but you are going faster, and you're doing so sooner, I don't understand how you can say something is wrong with the motorcycle. I'm saying that based upon observable, repeatable evidence, the error has to be in the technical documentation.
 
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You didn't answer my questions. That's telling.

I'm an engineer - we do like to use data and logic over feel and perception.

I haven't found a box that fits the 998 Spyders; if I did I might test one to further prove my point. But I suspect many would not believe my results anyway.

Maybe someone with one of these boxes would conduct a fair test, twisting 100% with and without the box engaged, and compare results. It would be interesting to do this as a blind test, with the driver not knowing if the box were engaged or not.

These boxes are very popular because they do deliver a satisfying experience to many. No question. A few of us who understand throttle-by-wire and how these boxes work know that we can achieve the same result by simply twisting more. We are in the minority.

Your:bdh: here. I can appreciate all of your testing , but in the real world people who have bought these like the way it works, as I do. I don't need graphs and charts. I know what I'm feeling and to me that's all that is needed. I never have to twist the throttle all the way around to get the desired performance I need coming out of a corner. That's one reason I bought it. I hated having to twist the throttle all the way. I never have to do that now. The bogging down when you opened the throttle up without the PB is virtually gone.
I'm not being hateful here, but just because you're an engineer doesn't mean that what and how you test things or incorporate ideas into design is necessarily the best. Just look at how the engineers make it almost impossible to access oil filters, belts, and other things so that you say "who designed this?" Engineers, that's who!
So in the end, let people enjoy what they like instead of arguing about it day after day. Let it go. Maybe someday you'll have a Spyder with a 1330 engine in it, and then you'll see how it makes a difference.
Have a nice day. :-)>
 
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Very interesting thread. I always like seeing emperical data, because personal testimony (even mine) can be so varied since we all perceive things differently, and we are subject to a whole series of biases, something advertisers are all to willing to exploit.

In this case, from reading the replies, I think the issue here is with the definition of "Throttle Response." In one case, it's being used in a technical/mechanical/electronic sense, something that can be demonstrated with data and graphs, and in the other case it's a sensory/viceral/perception sense, how the bike now feels when twisting the throttle with a modifier between the grip and the ECU.

Because the term can be defined in either way, unless a definition of what "Throttle Response" is agreed upon, it can be hard to reconcile the two differing views. Both can be right, while remaining in conflict. I can see the difference in this thread and understand where each person is coming from.

Because we perceive reality based on the inputs of our senses, a change in a sensory input can equate with a change in perceived reality, such as the "feeling" of before and after, levels of power or acceleration. One thing I remember going way back into hot rod days, was how adding a loud muffler or exhaust can make a vehicle "feel" like it has more torque, horsepower, or acceleration. Place that same vehicle in a dyno, and you may discover the exhaust modification actually hurts overall performance. It would be very interesting to me to see a device like this dyno tested, although frankly it would likely be a lot of money spent for little practical return. For the consumer, if an add-on makes a vehicle respond in a more desirable manner, the reality of what it actually does in a technical sense, makes little to no difference. It can be as simple as: "I want the vehicle to do this, or feel this way." If an add-on succeeds in meeting customer demand, then it is a successful product.

I saw the reference to the Sprint Booster, which is what I thought about when I first saw the Pedalbox mentioned in this forum. The Sprint Boosters were also very popular with the Chrysler Crossfire community, of which, I was once a member. I recall very similar threads where a regular member of the forum raced, did a lot of custom performance and tuning work and would offer his analysis on various products, the Sprint Booster being one. He not only tested modifications on a dyno, he had the ability to get into the ECU/software side of things to actually watch what was happening. I always found the threads very interesting. Turns out the Sprint Booster did the same kind of thing as the PedalBox. It changed the rate at which the ECU saw throttle input. The car felt "sportier," even though it didn't change 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, increase top speed, horsepower or torque numbers.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this post.

I use the generally-accepted definition of throttle response, which is time to power. You can substitute "time to power" for "throttle response" in my posts if that helps.

I was a member of the Mercedes SLK community, and Sprint Booster was also a popular topic there. As I mentioned, I did extensively test a Sprint Booster, and as you stated, there was no change in 0-60 time.

Regarding perception versus fact, one community member who had a Sprint Booster on his automatic transmission car insisted that the Sprint Booster improved the performance of his transmission, making it "come alive". Here's what was happening. Say you're cruising along on the freeway, and you pull out to pass. If you don't depress the accelerator pedal to the floor - say press 2/3 - the Mercedes SLK will accelerate somewhat lazily to pass and the transmission won't downshift. If you press it to the floor, however, that does signal the transmission to downshift, so you accelerate much faster for a pass. Sprint Booster had one simple linear curve, where it simply amplified the TAS, such that at 2/3 pedal press it delivered 100% TAS. So, when he pressed 2/3 to pass with Sprint Booster, his transmission "came alive". (Well, of course it would downshift.) He could not be convinced that this was normal operation of the transmission in either case, and that there was no connection between Sprint Booster and the transmission. Perception versus reality.

I think a dyno test would be a waste of time, because the box manufacturers acknowledge that their boxes do not change horsepower or torque.
 
So in the end let people enjoy what they like instead of arguing about it day after day.

I guess I don't know how my explaining how something works would impact someone's enjoyment. A few people have acknowledged appreciation for my posts, but if it makes you happy, I'll stop. I expected this forum would be welcome to an exchange of information.

Maybe someday you'll have a Spyder with a 1330 engine in it, and see how it makes a difference.

As I mentioned, I extensively tested one of these boxes on a different vehicle long ago. I don't feel I need to test every throttle-by-wire vehicle to know what the result will be.
 
So, the issue here is the phrase throttle response vs sensitivity.
Hmmm...
Overall 2 things can be true/false.
My analogy would be this. 2 racers line up who run the exact speed, but 1 starts running at the sound of the gun vs the other who starts running due to a green light, it is more likely that the person running based on the light will win the race. Not because they're faster, but simply because light travels faster than sound. So, the fraction of time it takes for the runner who hears the gun to begin running vs the runner who sees the light is enough to "lose the race". The response may be due to the sensitivity difference (light vs sound), but that sensitivity makes a big difference.
So, the terms used by these companies may not be technically correct, but the overall results are true-ish? Opening "full throttle" is not practical or necessary when using these devices. The "illusion" works, and most are satisfied.

Good write-up.
 
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